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The Grand Delusion
NY Times via www.tbo.com ^ | Sep 29, 2006 | DAVID BROOKS

Posted on 10/11/2006 9:21:54 PM PDT by neverdem

Worse, more and more people are falling for the Grand Delusion - the notion that if we just leave the extremists alone, they will leave us alone. On the right, some believe that if we just stop this Wilsonian madness of trying to introduce democracy into the Arab world, we can return to an age of stability and balance. On the left, many people can't seem to fathom an enemy the United States isn't somehow responsible for. Others think the entire threat has been exaggerated by Karl Rove for the sake of political scaremongering.

Perhaps it's understandable that many Americans would fall for this Grand Delusion. The Israelis, who have more experience with Islamic extremism, recently did. They imagined that they could build a security barrier and unilaterally withdraw from their historical reality. It took the war in south Lebanon to make them see there is no way to unilaterally withdraw. There is no way to become a normal society. Even if they pulled out of Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank, they would still have to...

--snip--

The blunt fact is that groups of Islamic extremists will continue to compete and grow until mainstream Islamic moderates can establish a more civilized set of criteria for prestige and greatness. Today's extremists are not the product of short-term historical circumstances, but of consciousness and culture. They are not the fault of the United States, but have roots stretching back centuries. They will not suddenly ignore their foe - us - when their hatred of us is the core of their identity.

The National Intelligence Estimate predicts terror violence will get worse in the years ahead. The scarier estimate was made by a veteran of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, in conversation with his grandson who now lives in Boston: "This is forever."

(Excerpt) Read more at tbo.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: iraq; islam; jihad; jihadi; terrorism; terrorists
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: furquhart; All
 

 

The longer we wait, and especially if we wait until it's 'them or us' in real time, the greater will be the 'collateral damage' and the lesser will be the liklihood that we will prevail.

'Preventative war' -- or even ' preemptive war' -- are politically incorrect by definition. For Bush to try to make them otherwise just to appease the enemy in our midst renders the 'war' just about worthless. The 'final' battle is all that will matter. (As Bush et al. are so eager to tell us: The terrorists have to be right only once.)



Let down the curtain: the farce is done. (Rabelais)


BEYOND NORTH KOREA
CLINTON DELUSIONS, DECEPTIONS + THE BOMB

(THE DEMOCRATS ARE GONNA GET US KILLED)


ALERT! SECURITY MOMS
THE LEFT IS GONNA GET US KILLED
PART 6


'KILL BILL'
THE CLINTON-FOLEY NEXUS: A THEORY


VIRTUAL KILL
THE CHRIS WALLACE-BILL CLINTON INTERVIEW DECONSTRUCTED


HILLARY'S FECKLESS 'DEFENSE' OF BILL WILL DAMAGE BOTH CLINTONS
THE CHRIS WALLACE INTERVIEW BLOWBACK





'BIN LADEN ALIVE TODAY BECAUSE CLINTON, BERGER + CLARKE REFUSED TO KILL HIM'
CLINTON 'MISLED AMERICAN PEOPLE' IN CHRIS WALLACE INTERVIEW
:HEAR Osama-Division CIA Chief


SOMALIA + RWANDA UNDERSCORE WHY WE MUST DEFEAT THE CLINTONS NOW (ATTENTION NEW YORKERS)


THE DRAMATIC INCREASE IN HILLARY CLINTON'S DISCLOSED ASSETS: An Alternative Theory

WHEN CATTLE FUTURES ARE THE FUTURE:
HILLARY CLINTON'S COW TRADES AS PROGNOSTIC



THE DECLINE OF HILLARY CLINTON: THE DYNAMICS
(SHE HAS ONLY ONE WAY TO GO. AND IT ISN'T UP.)


THE POLITICS OF DUMPING HILLARY (see post 53)


'HILLARY'S BIGGEST PROBLEM... SHE'S OLD NEWS'


CARVILLE AGITPROP + THE CLINTON JACKBOOT
'THE POWER OF HILLARY': THE TITLE



22 posted on 10/12/2006 7:08:24 AM PDT by Mia T (Stop Clintons' Undermining Machinations (The acronym is the message.))
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To: Jim Noble
George Bush never had the power to "make them our enemies".

So true. Since the attack on 9-11 occurred not from an abundance of hatred, but a profound lack of respect, perhaps the question should be, "how much do they respect us now?"

Two buildings fell, now two countries have fallen.

Another important question to answer is why have the jihadis not hit us again on our soil? It is time we consider the possibility that our enemy considers the loss of two countries (perhaps three if Pakistan can be counted), and the presence of the Great Satan in their midst, this time willing to stand and shed blood, as significant consequences to their actions.

23 posted on 10/12/2006 7:31:41 AM PDT by wayoverontheright
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To: bsariwat

"If we would withdraw the bases from around the world and focus on domestic issues instead of meddling with everyone's government, policing the world, paying off countries, people will stop targeting us just like they aren't targeting governments of other countries."

This is impossibly naive. First, the world is completely interconnected economically and otherwise. It is impossible for the USA to so completely withdraw from the world. Second, muslim extremists have declared war on us and devoted themselves to our total destruction. It is a grave mistake to think that any particular grievance they articulate can be appeased, because all those particular grievances are pretexts that derive from the only grievance that matters, that you do not agree with them on religion. The choice Al Qaeda has put to the US, to the Pope, to Europe, to Western Civilization is this: conversion or the sword. They have been crystal clear that their ambition is to expand Islam by violent jihad until the entire world submits to Allah. Withdrawal is not an option on this menu.

Regards,


24 posted on 10/12/2006 8:31:36 AM PDT by Buckhead
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To: zarf
I agree. Bush is conducting a grand experiment. Can a softer gentler military operation help the indigenous population establish order.

I never voted for anyone to use our good young Americans as guinea pigs in some dubious experiment. I consider that highly immoral.

If it all fails then it's back to traditional war:

When can we look forward to this? Bush only has two years and change left, he's running out of lab time.

25 posted on 10/12/2006 8:36:02 AM PDT by jpl (Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win.)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: bsariwat

"My main point is why are the terrorist not attacking other countries and only us?"

Another false premise.

http://www.rotten.com/library/history/terrorist-organizations/al-qaeda/

"According to Jane's Intelligence Review, al Qaeda is a "conglomerate of quasi-independent Islamic terrorist cells in countries spread across at least 26 countries, including Algeria, Morocco, Turkey, Egypt, Syria, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Burma, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Indonesia, Kenya, Tanzania, Azerbaijan, Dagestan, Uganda, Ethiopia, Syria, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, Bosnia as well as the West Bank [and China]." Other countries where al Qaeda is known to have covert operational cells include Pakistan, the Philippines, Malaysia, the United States, Britain, France and Canada."

Off the top of my head, muslim extremists have committed attacks in Russia, Chechnya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, Yemen, Somalia, Oman, Ethiopia, Algeria, England, France, the US, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Bali, Thailand and India.

"The declaration of war that Osama declared was because of the US base in Saudi Arabia. They want US bases off the holy land. I think withdraw the bases would be a great start to reducing hatred towards the US."

Perhaps you didn't notice that we have already withdrawn our forces from Saudi Arabia - as a result of deposing Saddam, whose threat those forces were there to meet. Yet Al Qaeda still insists upon our destruction. Such complaints are a pretext, as I have previously said. The main complaint is that we have not converted to Islam.

Spare us the Michael Moore schtick. If we withdraw, they will follow our troops and attack us here. They want us dead becasue we are not muslim, not because of anything that we do or fail to do.


27 posted on 10/12/2006 12:04:04 PM PDT by Buckhead
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To: bsariwat
What is delusional is for us to think we are innocent. I don't like the extremist and wish them a terrible end. Any oil rich country in the Middle East can easily help the Palestinians economy but they choose to see their brothers suffer. But that aside, they aren't attacking canada, mexico, bolivia, costa rica, russia, south africa, australia, china, etc... The majority of the countries are not a target of Al Quaeda. If we would withdraw the bases from around the world and focus on domestic issues instead of meddling with everyone's government, policing the world, paying off countries, people will stop targeting us just like they aren't targeting governments of other countries. All we are doing overseas is protecting assets of the rich with the poorman's blood. I'm sick of my tax dollars being spend on other countries.

Islamofascists have attacked Russia as well as Australians in the Bali bombing. China has also been attacked.

Chinese authorities blame separatist groups, including ETIM, for more than 200 terrorist attacks since 1990, resulting in 162 deaths and more than 440 injuries.

Martial law will continue until the old corrupt politician feel safe from Thanksin's threat. For all the time I have lived in Thailand, there isn't a priminister that isn't corrupt.

Are you a U.S. citizen or a Thai national? Folks in Thailand have had a bit or trouble from Islamofascists as well. Welcome to FReeRepublic.com .

28 posted on 10/12/2006 12:59:34 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: Buckhead; bsariwat
Spare us the Michael Moore schtick. If we withdraw, they will follow our troops and attack us here. They want us dead becasue we are not muslim, not because of anything that we do or fail to do.

Well said to someone who should be well aware of the attacks throughout South East Asia.

29 posted on 10/12/2006 1:04:57 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
Across Europe, Worries on Islam Spread to Center

Baker's Panel Rules Out Iraq Victory

Prayer Requested for 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Update at #902) opens @ 902

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

32 posted on 10/12/2006 5:30:42 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: truth_seeker

The delusion is that if we just leave them alone, everyone will come to a peaceful coexistence.

But THEIR RELIGION says they will CONQUER THE WORLD.

If an army said that, we would see it and know it and fight it.

But since it masquerades as a religion we get all touchy feely and kumbaya-d.

If somebody has the ultimate goal of the overthrow of the government, what do you call it?


33 posted on 10/12/2006 5:47:39 PM PDT by djf (There is no such thing as "moderate muslims". They are all "silent supporters!!")
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To: bsariwat
The US doesn't have a rebelling muslim population.

For a very good reason.

If so, they won't last long.

And here it is.

34 posted on 10/12/2006 6:08:52 PM PDT by Eaker (Dix, TexasCowboy and Flyer all now live in the next best place to Texas . .. Heaven)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping.

We are witnessing the greatest anti-truth, anti-freedom, anti-individual, anti-life collective in the history of civilization.


35 posted on 10/12/2006 8:23:40 PM PDT by PGalt
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To: bsariwat
... they aren't attacking canada, mexico, bolivia, costa rica, russia, south africa, australia, china, etc...

I note that you left out France. France has helped them more than anyone else, yet their Police say that they are being attacked by the "youths" in the Suburbs.(The Muslim areas.)

They are attacked hundreds of times a day. It is so common that it isn't news anymore.

36 posted on 10/12/2006 8:43:44 PM PDT by Dan(9698)
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To: neverdem

Thanks for the ping!


37 posted on 10/12/2006 9:03:10 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: nathanbedford
How are we to deal with Islamists, if we can't piss off Muslims?
Europe refuses to see the truth, but it is not safe. Every summer and every Ramadan, cities burn. The Muslim population grows and craven compromises are made.

Islam isn't the problem. Muslims who think that they must conquer the world is. We must made Muslim eschatological dreams an impossibility, so liberal Muslims can re-invent the religion.

38 posted on 10/12/2006 11:53:41 PM PDT by rmlew (DeathKlok Rules!)
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To: bsariwat
Dual citizenship is like a man with two watches who never really knows for sure what time it is.

Pick a country. If you pick mine, get back to me and I might take you more seriously.

39 posted on 10/13/2006 1:44:11 AM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator


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