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Saving the Battlewagons of the U.S. Marines
HUMAN EVENTS ^ | Sep 15, 2006 | Oliver North

Posted on 09/18/2006 7:41:46 PM PDT by neverdem

On Dec. 4, 1983, 28 aircraft from the USS Independence Carrier Battle Group attacked Hezbollah and Syrian anti-aircraft positions in Lebanon's Bekaa Valley. Two U.S. Navy A-7s were lost on the mission and a third aircraft was damaged. One of the downed pilots died of wounds in captivity and the other, Lt. Robert Goodman, was taken prisoner and paraded before the cameras. Though Lt. Goodman was eventually released, the U.S. Navy had learned a hard lesson.

Ten days later, U.S. reconnaissance flights were fired on again -- but this time the response was different. Instead of launching air strikes, the battleship USS New Jersey opened fire -- and with just 11 2,700-pound, 16-inch rounds, silenced the anti-aircraft sites. This feat was repeated on Feb. 8, 1984, when Syrian artillery opened fire on Christian West Beirut -- inflicting heavy civilian casualties. Less than two hours of fire from the New Jersey's 16-inch guns eliminated the Syrian artillery threat. It wouldn't be the last time the World War II-era "battlewagons" would serve our national interests.

During the 1981-1988 Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollahs running Tehran decided the best way to influence the outcome of the conflict was to attack Western oil tankers transiting the Persian Gulf -- through which passes 20 percent of the world's oil. The United States responded by beefing up the 5th Fleet -- and deploying the USS Iowa. The battleship's captain, Larry Sequist, described the effectiveness of the 45,000-ton armored behemoth: "When we would sail the Iowa down the Strait of Hormuz, all southern Iran would go quiet. Iran's Revolutionary Guards were steaming around in boats with rockets, shooting at ships. When we arrived, all of that stuff stopped."

When Saddam invaded Kuwait in August 1990, the battleship Wisconsin was among the first capital ships to arrive in the Persian Gulf. By the time Operation Desert Storm concluded on Feb. 28, 1991, the Wisconsin and her sister battleship, USS Missouri, had delivered more than 1 million pounds of ordnance on the enemy from their 16-inch guns, Tomahawk TLAM-C cruise missiles and 5-inch gun batteries. Fire from the battleships was so overwhelming that an Iraqi garrison actually surrendered to one of the USS Wisconsin's unmanned aerial vehicles.

Despite the effectiveness of the vessels in modern warfare -- and pleas from the U.S. Marine Corps to retain them for Naval Surface Gunfire Support -- two of the four battleships, the New Jersey and the Missouri, were decommissioned and turned into floating museums. Until now, however, Congress has insisted that the Wisconsin and Iowa be maintained in "a state of readiness" for "rapid reactivation" in the "event of a national emergency."

But all that may be about to change. A House-Senate Conference Committee is now considering lifting the requirement that the last two "heavy gun" ships in the allied arsenal be kept ready for action. Apparently the lessons of recent history have been lost on the administration -- and perhaps even in the corridors of Congress -- despite new threats from Iran to acquire nuclear weapons and interfere with shipping in the Persian Gulf.

Just three weeks ago, Iranian Revolutionary Guard naval craft attacked a Romanian oil rig, assaulted the offshore platform and briefly took the crew hostage before evicting them. And last week, as President Bush was preparing to remind the world of the threat posed by Tehran, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told a cheering crowd of supporters that "Iran has the ability to control the flow of oil the world needs."

Given the Jihad being waged against the West in much of the Islamic littoral, Iranian "saber rattling" and the lack of any replacement for the well-protected firepower of the Wisconsin and Iowa, turning them into floating museums now seems foolhardy. Yet, according to the green-eyeshade procurement wizards at the Pentagon, the two remaining battleships are too old, too expensive to operate and too costly in crew size to be deployed.

Instead of keeping the heavily-armored battlewagons maintained and ready, the brass at the five-sided puzzle palace and big spenders on Capitol Hill want the Marines to bide their time until 2012, when the Navy says it will deploy seven new DDG-1000 class destroyers -- at $3.3 billion apiece. These slower, thin-skinned vessels are to be equipped with an unproven Advanced Gun System designed to fire rounds weighing only 63 pounds but costing nearly $100,000 each. Even if the new ships eventually perform as advertised by their promoters, that's scant solace to the soldier or Marine who needs naval gunfire support at any point during the next six years.

People in Washington who ought to know better -- like Sen. John Warner, R-Va., the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee -- have turned a deaf ear to the plight of the Marines. Thankfully, a handful of stalwarts led by Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., have taken up the cause of preserving the Wisconsin and Iowa as mobilization assets. He believes that keeping the battlewagons ready to fight will save American lives. He's right.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: artillery; banglist; battleships; ussiowa
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To: happyathome
So upgrade the 1940's power systems. Bunker oil burners.... Replace'em with decile electrics or nuclear drives....
21 posted on 09/18/2006 8:06:57 PM PDT by Freeport
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To: Jimnorwellwarren
It's a cost vs. versatility issue. The problem is while the Iowas can blast the hell out of anything within range of their guns, they are far more limited than an aircraft carrier. Even if they were put back into service, they could no longer carry TLAM's because all TLAM's now are built for VLS.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Iowa back in the fleet but is sadly isn't going to happen.

22 posted on 09/18/2006 8:08:08 PM PDT by COEXERJ145 (Free Republic is Currently Suffering a Pandemic of “Bush Derangement Syndrome.”)
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To: omega4179
Battleships have been just a masturbatory fantasy ever since 300 planes sank the Yamato.

If all we were talking about was ship-to-ship combat, you'd be right. But since the great percentage of the world's population, trade, and resources are located within 22 miles of the coast (16" gun range) the Iowa's would still be extremely effective.

As to their expense to operate, the best overhaul would be replacing the old steam boilers with gas turbines. A nuclear powered ship would be even better. The crew savings would pay for the upgrade.

23 posted on 09/18/2006 8:08:11 PM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: omega4179

In a blue water fight with an adversary like Japan, you'd be right. That's highly unlikely to ever happen again. For the kinds of adversaries we do figure ot have in the next two or three decades, the Iowa class ship is far and away the best thing in our arsenal. Nothing much short of a direct hit with a nuclear weapon can do much damage to one of them, they can hit eighty percent of the targets we'd ever want to hit, and they can hit them as hard or harder than a carrier could in any kind of weather, with no risk to pilots. That's unbeatable.


24 posted on 09/18/2006 8:08:17 PM PDT by tomzz
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To: petertare

25 posted on 09/18/2006 8:11:07 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: GOP_Party_Animal

One more thing: Modern satellite-guided rounds would be a great compliment to the Iowa's 16" guns. Imagine lobing shells 100 miles inland with the precision of a JDAM but with fantastic kinetic energy as well.


26 posted on 09/18/2006 8:14:27 PM PDT by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: tomzz

An antiship missile or 2 or three could disable any on these. These gun platforms have to sit well within range
of a mille launch to hit anything. And with a 2 thousand
or so man ships company, thats a real liabilility for the
dubious ability of launching unguided projectiles.

The BB's day is over.


27 posted on 09/18/2006 8:15:19 PM PDT by rahbert
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To: neverdem
I'd keep one of them and gut it. Then rebuild it with modern updates for all of it's systems. I would convert it to nuclear power and install an Aegis class missile system on it. You could probably cut it's operation costs by half.
28 posted on 09/18/2006 8:16:34 PM PDT by Desron13 (If you constantly vote between the lesser of two evils then evil is your ultimate destination.)
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To: BIGLOOK

Look! It put a dent in the ocean!


29 posted on 09/18/2006 8:16:59 PM PDT by IronJack
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To: Billthedrill

"We can't afford sentiment in matters like this (he says with a tear running down his cheek)."



You don't have to be navy for this to be a tough discussion, I have never met any man that didn't love the battleship.


30 posted on 09/18/2006 8:17:11 PM PDT by ansel12 (illicit sin holds a sway over their lives to the point where boldness begins to be craved.)
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To: BIGLOOK

That's a FANTASTIC picture. It really shows the changes that were made to modernize the ship...looks like they added lots of missile launchers, removed the old 5" turrets along the sides amidships, added the helipad on the stern, and generally cleaned things up.

Sadly, the old battlewagons probably are impractical to modernize and redeploy, but I'd sure love to be proven wrong. They'd be somewhat vulnerable to modern anti-ship missiles, but probably no more vulnerable than any other ship, and maybe less than most since they're built so strongly. Then combine the sheer power of those 16-inch guns with modern artillery technology, and the mind boggles to think of the hell one of those ships could rain down within thirty miles of a coast.

}:-)4


31 posted on 09/18/2006 8:21:01 PM PDT by Moose4 (Dirka dirka Mohammed jihad.)
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To: rahbert

Build more subs is the answer.


32 posted on 09/18/2006 8:26:24 PM PDT by John Lenin
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To: tomzz
I love these ships, and what they represent. But its not true that it would take a nuclear weapon to sink one. HMS Royal Oak and HMS Barham. The General Belgrano was not a battleship, but Argentina would have been better off without it.

We are better off with dispersed assets in these days. A lot of eggs in a lot of baskets, rather than a lot of eggs in one big basket.
33 posted on 09/18/2006 8:27:49 PM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: omega4179

Hardly the first battleship to be sunk by airpower...


34 posted on 09/18/2006 8:29:02 PM PDT by Ready4Freddy (Sophomore dies in kiln explosion? Oh My God! I just talked to her last week...)
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To: rahbert

The Iowa class ships were built to do battle with the Bismarck, the Tirpitz, the Yamato, and the Musashi, and to survive hits from their guns. No antiship missile which I am aware of begins to compare with anything like that. In all likelihood, the damage could be repaired with a paintbrush and a bucket of paint. That's aside from the fact that the deck of an Iowa class ship offers 900 feet on which to mount phalanx guns and the latest generation of THEL, and it would be highly unlikely that a missile would ever get through.


35 posted on 09/18/2006 8:31:50 PM PDT by tomzz
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To: omega4179

BTAIM, an BB is the only ship that could survive a near miss by a nuclear missle. They don't (can't) make them like that anymore.


36 posted on 09/18/2006 8:32:58 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Experiment 6-2-6

We can't build as good a platform. The men who could are in resthomes or in their graves.


37 posted on 09/18/2006 8:34:38 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Moose4; IronJack
They'd be somewhat vulnerable to modern anti-ship missiles, but probably no more vulnerable than any other ship, and maybe less than most since they're built so strongly.

The BB would have a compliment of pickets like the modern Carrier Task Force or Battle Group.

Then combine the sheer power of those 16-inch guns with modern artillery technology, and the mind boggles to think of the hell one of those ships could rain down within thirty miles of a coast.

Look at any Mid East map and you'll see if we owned the coasts, ports and cities, the enemy would inherit the deserts. Let 'em pound sand.
38 posted on 09/18/2006 8:35:31 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: Aetius
Yeah, why not keep a couple?

For one there is likely no one In the service trained to operate them.

When Ronaldus Magnus brought them out of mouthballs they had to dig up WWII and Korean War Vets to train the Seaman to operate them.

The powder bags and shells they used were left over from WWII.

That stuff has to be past its use by date.

I think the old battle wagons are great. I wish we could use them to shell the Iranians Nuke Sites, but unless they make new munisions for those big guns I think they should be retired.

Remember the men that lost their lives when the turent blew up while firing those 16 inch shells.

39 posted on 09/18/2006 8:37:09 PM PDT by Pontiac (All are worthy of freedom, none are incapable.)
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To: Jimnorwellwarren
"Tey weren't a fantasy in Vietnam; they were an extremely effective platform."

I had a good friend that was with the marines in Quang Tre (SP?) province Vietnam. They were taking fire from hostiles dug in on a mountainside and called in support fire from the New Jersey. Tink said that when they usually called in support fire from their own artillery they started counting down from five but when they called in fire from the New Jersey they started counting from 21. At the end of the count the whole side of the mountain blew up. End of problem.
40 posted on 09/18/2006 8:39:18 PM PDT by dljordan
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