America's Muslims Aren't as Assimilated as You Think

Washington Post ^ | 8/27/06 | Geneive Abdo

[thehumanlynx]

If only the Muslims in Europe -- with their hearts focused on the Islamic world and their carry-on liquids poised for destruction in the West -- could behave like the well-educated, secular and Americanizing Muslims in the United States, no one would have to worry.

So runs the comforting media narrative that has developed around the approximately 6 million Muslims in the United States, who are often portrayed as well-assimilated and willing to leave their religion and culture behind in pursuit of American values and lifestyle. But over the past two years, I have traveled the country, visiting mosques, interviewing Muslim leaders and speaking to Muslim youths in universities and Islamic centers from New York to Michigan to California -- and I have encountered a different truth. I found few signs of London-style radicalism among Muslims in the United States. At the same time, the real story of American Muslims is one of accelerating alienation from the mainstream of U.S. life, with Muslims in this country choosing their Islamic identity over their American one.

[zimdog]

And what the koran says is to conquer or kill all those in the "House of War" --- that is, all non-muslims.

Based on whose reading?

But Islam, like the religion of National Socialism in Germany or the Emporer in Japan, cannot be tolerated in the form it is in, as it cannot, by nature, co-exist with any other religion.

National Socialism was a nationalist movement, not a religion. Emporer worship in Japan was an aspect of Shintoism hijacked by fascists in Japan's industrial collectives and its military to gain popular support for the country's imperial expansion in the first half of the 20th century.

[Gaffer]

Please go away...

[MeanWestTexan]

You are obviously a troll, an idiot, or a muslim.

I shall not waste time with you any longer.

Oh, and go read up on the Religion of National Socialism. It was as much a religious movement as a social movement (based on neo-pagan beliefs basically).

Goodbye dhimminidog.

[zimdog]

You are obviously a troll, an idiot, or a muslim.

If you bothered to read my posting history, you wouldn't say that.

And coming from someone who steadily accuses me of being a "dhimmini", the accusation of idiocy doesn't hold much water.

[zimdog]

If you don't like me here, tough luck. It's a Free Republic. Even crypto-fascists like yourself are allowed.

[snoringbear]

The difference between U.S. and Euro muslims is that most of the one's here in the U.S. are educated and entrepreneurial. So, they are taking a different approach toward achieving their goal by using their numbers as a voting block. As an example, I saw Michigan House of Representatives Carolyn Kilpatrick on Hannity a few weeks back. Hannity was hammering her pretty good for refusing to vote for a bill condemning radical Muslim terrorism. After much back and forth discussion, she closed by stating "Sean, I am just voting my constituency". She so happens to represent a district with the largest Muslim population in the country. Being that Muslims tend to locate where other Muslims live and form enclaves, this gives them voting power, although a small minority in most cases, enough to be the swing factor in many elections. Being that these folks are well educated and members of the professional and entrepreneurial classes, they well understand this power and how to use it. So, the ability of the U.S. to mitigate radical Muslim influence within the U.S. is fading very fast. The solution is to get past all this PC garbage and stop allowing Muslims to emigrate to the U.S.

[zimdog]

Any honest student of the koran can tell you this.

Then perhaps an "honest student" such as yourself can point to the chapter and verse.

[thehumanlynx]

If frequent prayer is the only thing you see when you read this then read it again.. or better yet go troll somewhere else.

Obviously its more than frequent prayer, Christians pray frequently while simultaneously carrying on american culture. It has to do with the blatant disregard of an effort to become americans. They dont want to. they want to us America, eventually taking it over and living under Islamic rule.

Its obvious that you are coming in here and just trying to start crap. So maybe take some of your own advice.. I believe it went something like STFU, but I'll be more subtle, just shut up please.

[thehumanlynx]

evidence of use and abuse of America with no effort to better the land/culture they take advantage of. They also raise Mexican flags over upside down American ones while calling for revolution.

[The Cuban]

bull.Even if you take last years 4 million number and add immigration, that would mean that out of a muslim populagtion of child bearing age (probably 1/3) that would mean that only 1.33 can have children. Out of that that means that there are approcimately 750K couples, which would mean each couple would have had to have had twins or triplets in the past year point: They lie about thier numbers, like they lie about everything else

[zimdog]

If frequent prayer is the only thing you see when you read this then read it again...

The article itself is poorly written. It never states what "American values" young Muslims are rejecting. It goes into great detail how they don't approve of "drinking" and "dating" and prefer instead modest "religious" dress. Of course, the same could be said of the Lubavitchers, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Hutterites, etc. Would you say that Hasidic kids in Brooklyn aren't "assimilated" because they reject keggers and Britney Spears? Of course you wouldn't.

It has to do with the blatant disregard of an effort to become americans.

The Pledge of Allegiance is not meant to be accompanied by a shot of whiskey. They're rejecting some parts of America's hedonistic youth culture, and they're certainly drawing away from people like you who hate them because of their faith.

Of course, you're avoiding me, telling me to shut up. I'm just as American and jsut as patriotic as you -- possibly more so. Are you as assimilated as you think?

[Admin Moderator]

Do not post to Gaffer.

[thehumanlynx]

Your hand picking things then turning them around to make whatever point you have in mind.

Further, its pretty presumptuous of you to assume that I hate "them". I never said anything to that effect. Do I think its bull crap that some of them make no effort to identify with America and rather seek to replace American traditions with those according to the rule of Islam... yes I do.

Of course, you're avoiding me, telling me to shut up. I'm just as American and jsut as patriotic as you -- possibly more so. Are you as assimilated as you think?

Let me point out what you posted first.. it goes like this (per post 66) reporter mean other than what they said or STFU.

I'm not sure how you can assume that you are either more patriotic or American as I am. Not sure how you can gouger that, but regardless, I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

Are you a muslim? I didnt want to spend a few hours perusing your previous posts.

[zimdog]

Your hand picking things then turning them around to make whatever point you have in mind.

Such as?

Further, its pretty presumptuous of you to assume that I hate "them". I never said anything to that effect.

I got you confused with MeanWestTexan. I apologize.

Do I think its bull crap that some of them make no effort to identify with America and rather seek to replace American traditions with those according to the rule of Islam... yes I do.

Pooly written as it is, the article was not about that. It was about about Muslims who do not wish to associate with what they see as a hedonistic youth culture. Conservative Christians also reject the sexualization of childhood and the popular culture links between drugs, alcohol and enjoying life. This doesn't mean they want to replace American traditions with the rule of Islam. In fact, if jello shots and lowrider jeans are the American traditions you hold sacrosanct, you're in the wrong forum.

Let me point out what you posted first.. it goes like this (per post 66) ["]reporter mean other than what they said or STFU.["]

I was jsut telling the poster that if you want to say that someone means the complete opposite of what he actually said, you should have proof to back up your claim. When a poster claims that "A" actually means "not A", we can't take that without some supporting evidence.

I'm not sure how you can assume that you are either more patriotic or American as I am. Not sure how you can gouger that, but regardless, I'm not interested in a pissing contest.

There isn't really a way of gauging it. It was pre-emptive more than anything. My previous experience on these kinds of threads has taught me that your patriotism is questioned if you defend other Americans who don't practice the "right" religion.

Are you a muslim? I didnt want to spend a few hours perusing your previous posts.

With respect, if you don't want to make the effort to get to know me, I don't want to disclose suspend a longstanding rule and reveal personal information on a publicly accesible web page. I have done it before, but I don't do it at the drop of a hat.

[thehumanlynx]

You referenced frequent prayer as the reason I thought they were refusing to be an American.. I was more referencing this from the article

with Muslims in this country choosing their Islamic identity over their American one.... that choice indicates the the expense of American identity.
along with this less likely to embrace the nation's fabled melting pot of shared values and common culture. .. and this "I know I don't have to fit in," she said. "I don't think Muslims have to assimilate. We are not treated like Americans. At work, I get up from my desk and go to pray. I thought I would face opposition from my boss. Even before I realized he didn't mind, I thought, 'I have a right to be a Muslim, and I don't have to assimilate.' "

So my issue has to do with the attitude taken, Her boss had no problem with the prayers, but she already has the attitude that she doesnt need to make an effort to assimilate.

- Apology understood and accepted.

- The next point was not necessarily birthed by reading the article alone, but I stand by it, whether the article spoke to it or not. Even though I believe that some of the interviewees do express views that are harsh with respect to becoming a part of America.
I also believe that the sexualization of society, along with the bolstering of the feel good culture with regards to sex, drugs, and alcohol are serving to do nothing but rot our society. I am a virgin until my wedding night on DEC. 16, I dont drink, smoke, or anything like that. So I agree with you on that point.

In fact, if jello shots and lowrider jeans are the American traditions you hold sacrosanct, you're in the wrong forum. .... Again, not sure why you felt the need to say that, I never hinted that I was a purveyor of that line of thought. If you read through my post history you would see that. I believe I am in the correct forum. Even so, this forum is more open to discourse/disagreement than many I've been on.

-stfu.. We will just drop that one.

- I wouldn't challenge your patriotism, because I think it is a practice of futility in face to face meetings, and even more ridiculous via website. I'm not into that game. As far as right and wrong religion, I feel that you can practice whatever religion you want, its your prerogative.. as long as that religion doesn't trample the rights of others. Everyone has free will. However, I think any religion that one ascribes to must be viewed as the correct religion in that persons eyes... otherwise, what is the point of belief in said religion? Whether or not they worship Allah or zimdog, I don't seek to deny their right to do so, but will I believe they are correct in doing so, no. I will do what I can to show them about my Jesus and the power of Christ and what it means to be a Christian.

- Obviously you do see now that I am a conservative and a Christian. I believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ. If you dont wish to share your faith with me, then dont. I was just curious, but I dont understand what the point of keeping it secret is. I have no problem sharing my private relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ via public website or otherwise. Perhaps you fear retribution from some loon, Perhaps not. I also happen to believe in the 2nd amendment and enjoy the freedoms associated with it, and down here in FL we have less restrictive laws which allow me to defend myself if some Muslim lunatic or any other lunatic wish to harm me and mine.

regards, thanks for the discourse... -lynx

[zimdog]

So my issue has to do with the attitude taken, Her boss had no problem with the prayers, but she already has the attitude that she doesnt need to make an effort to assimilate.

I agree that the woman's attitude was upsetting, but the article is still poorly written. There is no need to choose a religious identity over a national identity. One can be a good Muslim and a good American without contradiction. I think the "assimilation" that the subjects of this article were resisting was assimilation into aspects of American culture that assume Chrisitanity is the only religion. The woman who said "I have a right to be a Muslim, and I don't have to assimilate" is rightfully upset that Muslims "are not treated like Americans." I think what she's saying is that because people are unwilling to consider Muslims to be real Americans, Muslims don't feel obligated to change their daily lives (speficic prayer times, hijab, etc.) in order to make these people happy. I don't think the young woman was upset at her boss as much as she was stating (and asserting) her fundamental right to freely practice her faith. But like I said, it's a poorly written article. At no point does it say what it thinks "American values" are.

Chinese and Jews had the same problem a century ago but the country eventually realized that patriotic Americans didn't have to observe Sunday as the Sabbath in order to be patriotic Americans. That shared struggle for recognition had some interesting outcomes, like the American Jewish tradition of eating Chinese food on Christmas day, when everyone else was celebrating the holiday in church.

- Apology understood and accepted.

Thank you.

Even though I believe that some of the interviewees do express views that are harsh with respect to becoming a part of America.

That's troubling indeed. Do you think that some people express views that are harsh with respect to becoming a part of America in part because other people (such as the "Nuke Mecca!" crowd) express views that are harsh with respect to them becoming a part of America? If I were a Muslim, I would be understandably upset if I had to hear some of the things that you find on these forums. For those who tell us that Muslims will never be true Americans, they should know that they're discouraging Muslim immigrants from assimilating. Why would anyone want to join a club where he is not really wanted as a member?

I wouldn't challenge your patriotism, because I think it is a practice of futility in face to face meetings, and even more ridiculous via website. I'm not into that game.

You stand tall with that attitude.

As far as right and wrong religion, I feel that you can practice whatever religion you want, its your prerogative.. as long as that religion doesn't trample the rights of others. Everyone has free will. However, I think any religion that one ascribes to must be viewed as the correct religion in that persons eyes... otherwise, what is the point of belief in said religion? Whether or not they worship Allah or zimdog, I don't seek to deny their right to do so, but will I believe they are correct in doing so, no. I will do what I can to show them about my Jesus and the power of Christ and what it means to be a Christian.

That is the best way to approach it. Respect and education.

I have no problem sharing my private relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ via public website or otherwise. Perhaps you fear retribution from some loon, Perhaps not.

I have no problem sharing my faith either -- I am a Christian. I have also met some loons here (and there are plenty more loons out there who can access this page) and I'd prefer to keep my private relationships as private as possible, especially given that all our posts can be retrieved by anyone interested, dilligent or crazy enough to do so. Yes, a have 2nd Amendment rights, but I'd rather not have to exercise them. More importantly, I don't want my family to be put in a position that would necessitate the recourse to firearms. Or calling the police, for that matter. I hope you understand.

And I'll assume the "Dec. 16" wedding date was last year and offer your my belated congratulations.

[thehumanlynx]

Dec 16 of this year, thanks.

I just feel like I shouldnt have to be help captive by the possibility of others reacting to my statements of faith or statements in general. But Po-tay-to po-tah-to... to each his own. Thanks for the fun talk.

I think the "non-fanatical" muslims would do themselves a world of good by renouncing terrorism in all its forms. Every problem starts with yourself, or every solution to a problem I should say. Make your own thoughts and attitudes clear so as to remove any confusion. We see more outspoken muslim leaders who express sympathy for terrorists against America than they do for the opposite.

Do you think that some people express views that are harsh with respect to becoming a part of America in part because other people (such as the "Nuke Mecca!" crowd) express views that are harsh with respect to them becoming a part of America?

perhaps, but that is not an excuse any more than it is for the nuke mecca crowd to hate all muslims b/c they terrorists ascribe to that faith. I think as a society we look to others for blame before we look to ourselves and this is just another instance of that. We are responsible for our own lives and plight.

Why would anyone want to join a club where he is not really wanted as a member?

I dont know. But being that they are already in the club, it makes sense that they should try to appreciate the club. How is middle judeo-christian America supposed to separate the muslim celebrations in the mid-east that occur after each American tragedy from the attitudes of the muslims within America when they say nothing against such tragedies? If an anti abortion Christian murders three abortionists are all Christian murderers? No. Why do we not assume so? Because the level headed all abhor that behavior and state as much, the same doesnt happen as readily for practitioners of Muslim faith. That is where the discrepency lies and becomes problematic.

Like I said, it would do muslims a world of good in they would come out in unity and condemn the terror attacks on civilians and the calls to "behead the infidels".