Posted on 08/26/2006 7:03:38 PM PDT by Amendment10
"3. Resolved that it is true as a general principle and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the constitution that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively or to the people’: and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, & were reserved, to the states or the people..." --Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. http://tinyurl.com/oozoo
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
(Excerpt) Read more at princeton.edu ...
The situation is complicated. At least it's on the table now.
"If this has been discussed at length before, I missed it & I've been lurking for years. I'm very glad you brought it up again."
Are you up to speed with the theory that Justice Black's goal with respect to twisting the reasonable interpretation of the establishment clause is that, instead of pushing church and state separation, this was his way of pushing Roman Catholic Church and state separation?
Fortunately for those of us who defend the honest interpretation of the Constitution, by quoting Jefferson in the Everson opinion, he probably quoted the worst possible person to help justify his treasonous interpretation of the establishment clause.
"You are going to have to show me the exact words that you believe show that Jefferson acknowledged that the the 1st and 10th Amendments were intended to delegate government power to address religious issues uniquely to the state governments."
Starting with the OP:
"3. Resolved that it is true as a general principle and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the constitution that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively or to the people’: and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, & were reserved, to the states or the people..." --Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. http://tinyurl.com/oozoo
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
The Kentucky Resolutions extract above is a general example of the 1st and 10th Amendment division of certain powers between federal and state governments. A religion specific example from Jefferson's letter to Rev. Samuel Miller is as follows:
"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. http://tinyurl.com/nkdu7
(Note that Jefferson's terms "United States" and "General Government" are references to the federal government, not the state governments. Part of the problem concerning c&s separation controvercies is that "United States" is now synonymous with both the federal and state governments. Failing to distinguish between federal and state governments undoubtedly helps to water down the meaning of the 10th A.)
The Miller extract shows that Jefferson broke tradition with Presidents Washington and Adams by "passing the buck" for the official government recognition of a national religious holiday, Fasting and Prayer I believe, from the federal government to the state governments. The constitutional provisions that Jefferson refers to are reasonably understood to be the 1st and 10th Amendments. Jefferson's Miller letter is also an example of Jefferson upholding a promise from his 2nd inaugural address concerning his determination to respect the constitutional division of federal and state powers, particular the unique power of the state governments to address religion:
"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378 http://tinyurl.com/jmpm3
Finally, Jefferson reflected on the 10th Amendment powers of the states by noting that the state governments alone had been trusted with the care of our religious freedoms as evidenced by this extract:
"Our citizens have wisely formed themselves into one nation as to others and several States as among themselves. To the united nation belong our external and mutual relations; to each State, severally, the care of our persons, our property, our reputation and religious freedom." --Thomas Jefferson: To Rhode Island Assembly, 1801. ME 10:262 http://tinyurl.com/onx4j
The problem with respect to properly understanding our constitutional religious freedoms is that, in contrast to the 1st Amendment's clear prohibition of religious powers on the federal government, people typically question why the Constitution seemingly says nothing about the power of the states to address religion. (Note that the 10th Amendment doesn't mention any particular power.) People consequently fall into the trap of presuming, with a little bit of help from Justice Black's treasonous interpretation of the establishment clause, that the Constitution "reasonably" meant for the states to be prohibited from addressing religious issues as well.
But what most people, including me, have overlooked is that the Constitution's silence about religious powers being prohibited to the state governments is what actually triggers the 10th Amendment to automatically reserve this power to the state governments. These powers are said to be reserved to the states because the states had this power before they established the federal government and its Constitution.
It seems like people are bickering about the establishment clause so much that they've essentially forgotten that the 10th Amendement exists.
bump for later
The words come from the 1780 Constitution of Massachusetts. The struggle to restore to the people of Massachusetts their natural rights of conscience was bitter and protracted. It was not until 1833 that the Lord God Almighty delivered the government of Massachusetts over to the Jeffersonian republicans who proceeded to improve the Massachusetts Constitution and abolishing Christianity by changing "every denomination of Christians" to "All religious sects and denominations."
States are prohibited some powers [by the Constitution] in the 10th. -- The document itself, along with its Amendments, enumerates those prohibited powers, and in the 9th says that certain rights shall not be denied or disparaged.
And, as Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; -- it stands to reason that States too are so prohibited, -- and shall make no such laws.
Of course, this rationale was not percisely specified in the 1st, leading to much dispute, -- which was finally resolved by the 14th's words making it crystal clear that States were not to ignore our rights to life, liberty, or property.
-- if a given state got rid of its state religion it was exercising its 10th Amendment power to do so, not because an issue was being made that the state was violating the 1st Amendment's prohibition on the religious powers of the federal government.
-107-
The federal government has no "religious powers". The USSC has only the power to issue an opinion that a State law is infringing on our rights. The executive & congress decide whether to enforce that opinion.
-- in any case, the original States quickly acknowledged that state supported religions were infringements on liberty.. Prospective states, like Utah, that tried to establish religions, were denied Statehood.
Thus, your 'attitude' on this issue is moot.
Finally, the brass tack buried beneath so much mental masturbation.
Again, tyranny by the state is every bit as vile as federal tyranny. We're opposed.
"My attitude is that the states can establish all the religions that they want to with their 10th A. powers."
'Finally, the brass tack buried beneath so much mental masturbation.
Again, tyranny by the state is every bit as vile as federal tyranny. We're opposed.'
Sigh. :^(
As evidenced by your deletion of my point about the 14th A. checks on the 10th A. powers of the states, a typical Constitution-ignoring secularist response, you are wrongly ignoring middle ground between the 10th and 14th Amendments.
"States are prohibited some powers [by the Constitution] in the 10th. -- The document itself, along with its Amendments, enumerates those prohibited powers, and in the 9th says that certain rights shall not be denied or disparaged.
And, as Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; -- it stands to reason that States too are so prohibited, -- and shall make no such laws."
With respect to what has already been discussed in this thread about the 10th A. you are distinguishing yourself with your reply, except not in a way that you would probably like to think.
"State governments have authority over the natural rights of conscience only as the people have submitted to them. The rights of conscience were never submitted by the people to their state governments. The rights of conscience could not be submitted to the state governments even if the people wanted to submit them. We are answerable for the rights of conscience to our God. The legitimate powers of government extends only to those acts that are injurious to others, even if a man believes such acts are his religious duty. See Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:221
The rights of conscience (the authority of a man over his religious sentiments and actions) are reserved to the people, not to the states. The people never granted the their state or federal governments authority over their religion. The only religious authority over man is his God. A frog on a log has more legitimate power than the government has over a man's duty to his Creator."
Tell me, is your denial of Jefferson's writings about the religious aspects of the 1st and 10th Amendments so great that you perhaps perceived blank areas on your computer screen where his extracts actually were? Given that you completely ignored what Jefferson wrote about the 1st and 10th Amendments, you are evidently in denial of the actual intentions of the Founders about state government power to address religious issues.
As I've said elsewhere, the 10th A. was initially unchecked, a situation which led to problems. But you are ignoring that the 10th and 14th Amendments now check each other; that is, if we had judges who would take their oaths to defend the Constitution seriously instead of stifling our religious freedoms with politically correct interpretations of these amendments.
Again, based on Jefferon's writings about the 1st and 10th Amendment and Justice Reed's notes about the 1st, 10th and 14th Amendments, the states have the constitutional power (10th) to authorize public schools to lead non-mandatory (14th) classroom discussions on the pros and cons of evolution, creationism and irreducible complexity, for example, regardless that atheists, separatists, secular judges and the liberal media are misleading the people to think that doing such things in public schools is unconstitutional.
"English is a second language to me, and I had absolutely no difficulty reading that, or any part of the document. Jefferson clearly states his idea that religion can corrupt politics, as well as BE corrupted by politics."
Thank you for your opinion about Jefferson's writings.
They may not be a part of gov't but they are in a gov't bldg. and they lead prayer in that bldg. with elected representatives of the country. How you conclude this has nothing to do with the issue at hand is quite remarkable.
No one, not even the ACLU, has ever made the argument that people in government cannot hold religious beliefs.
Who ever stated otherwise?
States are prohibited some powers [by the Constitution] in the 10th. -- The document itself, along with its Amendments, enumerates those prohibited powers, and in the 9th says that certain rights shall not be denied or disparaged.
And, as Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; -- it stands to reason that States too are so prohibited, -- and shall make no such laws.
Of course, this rationale was not precisely specified in the 1st, leading to much dispute, -- which was finally resolved by the 14th's words making it crystal clear that States were not to ignore our rights to life, liberty, or property.
-- if a given state got rid of its state religion it was exercising its 10th Amendment power to do so, not because an issue was being made that the state was violating the 1st Amendment's prohibition on the religious powers of the federal government.
-107-
The federal government has no "religious powers". The USSC has only the power to issue an opinion that a State law is infringing on our rights. The executive & congress decide whether to enforce that opinion.
-- in any case, the original States quickly acknowledged that state supported religions were infringements on liberty..
Prospective states, like Utah, that tried to establish religions, were denied Statehood.
Thus, your 'attitude' on this issue is moot, since you simply are incapable of understanding Constitutional principles.
With respect to what has already been discussed in this thread about the 10th A. you are distinguishing yourself with your reply, except not in a way that you would probably like to think.
Whereas your reply makes it evident you cannot rebut the facts in mine. -- In effect, you've conceded.
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