The Papers of Thomas Jefferson (Supreme Court got Jefferson's "wall of separation" wrong)

Princeton University: Jefferson's Draft ^ | Thomas Jefferson

[Amendment10]

"3. Resolved that it is true as a general principle and is also expressly declared by one of the amendments to the constitution that ‘the powers not delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively or to the people’: and that no power over the freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or freedom of the press being delegated to the US. by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, all lawful powers respecting the same did of right remain, & were reserved, to the states or the people..." --Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. http://tinyurl.com/oozoo

1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[jla]

What religious displays did they have no objection to?

I was speaking in general terms. The fact that the United States Congress had it's own chaplains, (who I assume possessed and read from Bibles), negates any notion of Mr. J's desire to expunge any and all references to religion from the public domain.

[jla]

What he wanted expunged was civil authority over the things of God, such as the illegally assumed Presidential authority to issue religious recommendations

I agree. And for curiosity's sake, what do you mean by "recommendations"?

As an aside, I believe TJ would be greatly appalled at how the phrase separation of Church and State has been twisted and misappropriated to fit the ideology of many on the Left and some on the Right.

[MuddyWaters2006]

You still need to make a distinction between federal and state governments where civil authority is concerned.

What distinction are you talking about, my learned friend? I am not sure what you mean.

[MuddyWaters2006]

Jefferson actually used state government power to address religious issues to respect all establishment of religion.

Huh? What religious issues?

[jla]

Jefferson's Notes On Virginia.

Should be put in text book form and required reading/studying before any student can graduate from high school or before any politician may accept a seat in a state or national congress or before any President-elect is sworn in.

[Luis Gonzalez]

The U.S. Constitution addresses itself to the running of the Federal government, and its interaction with the many State governments. So when I speak of "government" as it relates to the U.S. Constitution as drafted by James Madison et al, I am directing myself at the Federal government.

Unless you can find somewhere where I discuss a State government, you are guilty of assuming.

However, generally speaking, the fact that by 1833 (within the lifetime of the Founders) all instances of State religions had disappeared from the nation speaks volumes of their thoughts on the issue.

[Luis Gonzalez]

The chaplains were not there to enacts laws, where they?

[MuddyWaters2006]

I was speaking in general terms.

I see, I understand you to say that you have no evidence that the U. S. Government during the Early Years of the Republic erected religious displays. If you ever find evidence that the U. S. Government, during the Early Years of the Republic, erected religious displays please pass that information to me. Thanks.

The fact that the United States Congress had it's own chaplains, (who I assume possessed and read from Bibles.

I would not assume anything regarding the duties of the Chaplains to the First U. S. Congress during the Early Years. It is pure myth that the Chaplains were elected by the First Congress to say a prayer to open each daily session of Congress.

According to the historical evidence, all the Chaplains to Congress ever did for the First U. S. Congress was perform one prayer service in St. Paul's Chapel on the day of Washington's first inauguration and a few (a very view) "morning prayers" for any Congressmen who wanted to arrive a half hour before the time the previous session was adjourned to at the previous session. James Madison wrote that the services [whatever type of services they were and however often they were conducted] performed by the Chaplains to Congress degenerated into "a scanty attendance" and "a tiresome formality."

negates any notion of Mr. J's

Please explain to me how something Congress does could possibly negate whatever was in Jefferson's mind.

desire to expunge any and all references to religion from the public domain.

Jefferson wanted to expunge all civil authority over the things that are God's. If a reference to religion (or any other type of reference) by the U. S. Government was part and parcel of an assumption of civil authority over religion, then Jefferson would have wanted it expunged.

[MuddyWaters2006]

What do you mean by "recommendations"?

I mean make attractive, make acceptable, urge, advocate, push for, propose, suggest, advise, commend or express a good opinion of.

[kindred]

[The authors of that same Constitution also granted the power to the SCOTUS to make exactly these determinations of intent.]

But not to change the intent, which the radical left judges do at the behest of arrogant elitist politicians who love power and would destroy the original intent of the founders of the constitution.
Kelo is a bell tower of the madness of the left wing in it's intent to overturn the God inspired rights of the Bill of Rights; a Christian nation is becoming a communist nation under the left wing fascism of atheistic Christ and Jew haters.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"The extract from Jefferson's Bill for Religious Freedom that you posted is difficult to read."

English is a second language to me, and I had absolutely no difficulty reading that, or any part of the document. Jefferson clearly states his idea that religion can corrupt politics, as well as BE corrupted by politics.

"The bottom line is that I question your self-honesty with respect to reading things objectively, particularly when something is difficult to read in the first place."

I'm sorry, should I have translated Mr. Jefferson's writings into modern English for you?

"your idea that Jefferson meant to warn against cojoining religious and government powers doesn't hold water, particularly with respect to the state governments. "

Really now?

So, the fact that the "Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia" addressed itself to the the State of Virginia didn't give you a clue about what Jefferson thought about State government and religion conjoining?

Plain English...people who fought a hard, bitter fight to rid themselves of a King who believed he ruled by God's will, did not want to institute a government that ruled by the will of God.

[TexasJackFlash]

You are going to have to show me the exact words that you believe show that Jefferson acknowledged that the the 1st and 10th Amendments were intended to delegate government power to address religious issues uniquely to the state governments.

[jla]

The chaplains were not there to enacts laws, where they?

And your point is?

[jla]

I see, I understand you to say that you have no evidence that the U. S. Government during the Early Years of the Republic erected religious displays. If you ever find evidence that the U. S. Government, during the Early Years of the Republic, erected religious displays please pass that information to me. Thanks

I never stated, nor implied, that the gov't did. That is your misinterpretation of my remarks.
...and you may apply that last sentence above to your other replies to my posts.

[UnChained]

If this has been discussed at length before, I missed it & I've been lurking for years. I'm very glad you brought it up again.

[UnChained]

"Secularists and atheists tend to put Jefferson on a pedastal because of his "wall of separation" words which have been treasonously taken out of context by our corrupt, anti-religious expression Supreme Court."

Strong words...

I've often thought that failure to "protect and defend the constitution" after taking the oath should be a capital offense.

What other recourse is appropriate for a judge who subverts the constitution?

[hinckley buzzard]

"...it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other."

Guess which state constitution this comes from.

[hinckley buzzard]

"And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law..."

And...guess which State constitution this comes from.

[philetus]

PING

[Luis Gonzalez]

They're not part of government, so their presence there has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand.

No one, not even the ACLU, has ever made the argument that people in government cannot hold religious beliefs.