MODERN MANNERS (Offering a Woman a Seat Is 'Creepy,' According to GQ)

New York Post ^ | August 18, 2006 | Liz Smith

[nickcarraway]

'WOMEN ARE equals now. They can fend for themselves. To offer a perfectly healthy woman a seat simply because she is a woman, however well-intentioned, is creepy. At best, she'll think you're from another country; at worst she'll feel old, or overweight enough to be perceived as pregnant."

And that is a lesson in modern manners, according to the new issue of GQ (with Clive Owen on the cover). Glenn O'Brien and other GQ scribes weigh in on e-mails, cellphones, gym etiquette, dressing for travel, how to handle chatty seatmates, sleeping with your friend's ex, online dating, wedding gifts and how to treat gay people: "Gay people don't want to freshen up the world, they just want to be a part of it." (So don't ask for makeovers and fashion tips.)

Oh, but you certainly should open doors for women: "Why? To be nice, you mannerless ape!"

[hinckley buzzard]

Only in the increasingly barbaric urban areas would this common courtesy be considered "creepy".

Well-put. And that would include the dissolute pages of GQ.

[Rca2000]

Agreed. Us real men read car and driver, Sound and vision, Invention and technology and other things of that sort--and watch numbers, NCIS and 24--- NOT American idol!!

[Rca2000]

I probably opened or held a door for others at least 5 times this afternoon-- men, and women alike, some with kids. NOT ONE of them reacted badly toward me. It is something that I usually do without even thinking about it. Guess it has to do with the way I was raised.

As to the one woman who told me she felt "threatened" when I opened a door for her-- I just closed the door and RAN off, while she continued to rant about harassment and other shit. her loss, not mine.

As to offering a seat on a bus or train-- I VERY rarely ride public transportation, so that is not much of an issue for me.

I must say there MAY be a reason some feel threatened about someone "holding a door". I have seen it several times around here. It involves teen-age boys, or even girls-- They will "act" like they are going to "hold the door" for someone, and they DO open the door, BUT JUST as the person gets to the door, they SLAM it in their face, and run off laughing!! THAT MAY be a reason to feel threatened about someone holding a door for another person, I reckon.

[angcat]

This past Easter Sunday our Church was so packed it was standing room only. Do you know not one man got up to offer my mother a seat. I was completely turned off by it. They are wimps and rude hicks.

[Professional Engineer]

It would the magazine needs to change its name.

[Paved Paradise]

I just laughed when I got to your last sentence. Good one. I never expected a man to stand, while I sat, just for being a woman, but when I was pregnant, I couldn't believe the guys that just didn't give a hoot. It was aggravating primarily because men don't get pregnant, thus, they have NO idea how hard it is to stand on a 30 minute plus bus/train ride.

You make a really good point about chivalry. I'm a midwestern gal, hardworking, and practical but I like to be treated like a "lady." Let's face it, men are physically stronger, in general, and they should defer accordingly. Most do I suppose, but I do admit you guys have been getting beaten up for a long time, especially white guys! And white Christian guys are even more abused.

[HitmanLV]

I think I didn't make myself clear - I wasn't speaking exclusively in terms of romantically attracting women (though that is a subset of what I am describing). Very goodlooking women are just women - they do have a different set of advantages over other people, but also a different set of challenges.

I don't think your conclusion that very goodlooking women are shallow is fair (actually, that mindset might be coming through subconsciously and is alienating some of these women who you say you have rarely done well with). I don't immediately think that very goodlooking women are notably shallow (though some of them clearly are), but in any event it's not a very useful belief to hold.

My views aren't unusually rose colored - sure some women are stuck up, shallow, etc. I just don't give them any mind. I don't think every woman I have interacted very well with has been sexually attracted to me -in fact, I know that's not the case. I have no idea why you cite that - in fact, it's pretty faulty reasoning on your part and very misplaced.

That may be something you got from that dating expert, but I have to also point out that by your own admission you 'rarely' have had friendly or otherwise positive responses from very goodlooking women, or any woman.

Maybe you should at least consider changing your approach or outlook. That is, maybe it hasn't consistently been that the women you have encountered had a problem. Maybe somebody else had a problem.

[DakotaGator]

Sometimes when a man performs them, though, he's screamed at by rabid feminists. My brother tried to hold the door for a woman in New York. What a mistake!

Not only is it embarassing and infuriating when that occurs, but it is overwhelmingly sad. I salute your brother for keeping up his part of the social contract!

[California Patriot]

Losing time after time will inevitably distort one's perspective somewhat, but maybe it also allows me to see some things you don't.

It's absurd for you to infer that I've done poorly with women in general just because I've done poorly with hotties. I've done OK with moderately good-looking women, but they are more normal human beings, and I would say more human.

[hosepipe]

Liz Smith evidentially does not like being respected...
DONE....

[HitmanLV]

It's absurd for you to infer that I've done poorly with women in general just because I've done poorly with hotties.

Look, it was you who was putting yourself down about appealing to goodlooking women, not me. I'm trying to talk you out of it. I tend to think, from what I have read from your comments, that you probably have some beliefs that come through in your manner and language that alienate women, rather than appeals to them. I have to admit, from what I have seen of your observations, I don't entirely blame them.

I've done OK with moderately good-looking women, but they are more normal human beings, and I would say more human.

See what I mean? With that attitude (very goodlooking women are somehow less normal human beings, and somehow less human), I don't blame very attractive women for consistently rejecting you. That's to their credit, not their detriment.

This dovetails with the pervasive bias against very goodlooking women in our culture. It sucks. Would you care to elaborate on your evaluation of human beings and their relative humanity, in regards to women of stunning good looks and exquisite bodies? This ought to be good!

[California Patriot]

Beautiful women can very easily live in a fantasy world, and many of them do. Such people are cut off from much that makes us fully human.

[California Patriot]

Beautiful women can very easily live in a fantasy world, and many of them do. Such people are cut off from much that makes us fully human.

[HitmanLV]

See, it makes perfect sense (and moral goodness) that very goodlooking women would be alienated by that kind of attitude. In fact, I would hope they would consistently reject a guy with that kind of view. Why would a woman want to be around a man who feels this way, and why would she want to couple with him romantically?

When it comes to romance, people tend to reject other people for substantive, rather than shallow grounds. It's a bitter pill to swallow for some, I admit. It's much easier to think that a class of very goodlooking women is rejecting a man for shallow reasons, rather than face the possibility that they are rejecting a man for entirely sound reasons.

It's the woman's fault, not mine. How truly....liberal!

[Victoria Delsoul]

Your comments are right on target.

Good to know that there are quite a few gentlemen around.

[California Patriot]

"Sound reasons" are sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

Again, I don't claim to have a perfectly clear perspective here. Apparently you do. You won't admit that a track record of success with gorgeous women might bias you just a little.

You apparently think such women are really good mind-readers, or that my attitude toward them as a whole must be manifest somehow in every interaction I have with one of them, which I would only have if I thought they might be nice.

It's just a little too easy for someone who hasn't been in my shoes, who has in fact been in very different shoes, to say I'm a jerk. Sure, I'd like to have a more positive attitude. I've always tried to show it. Your smug assumption that it can't be their fault, it must be mine, because I have gradually developed a cynical attitude doesn't hold up. It's not an attitude I've always had. It's been built up over many, many rejections and many, many attempts to keep hope alive.

Maybe you should get a gig selling positive-thinking lectures. But before you do, I'd suggest that you pick up a little humility and a little more ability to listen.

[Victoria Delsoul]

It's the woman's fault, not mine. How truly....liberal!

OMG, this is one the funniest thread I've read so far, ROTFLOL!

[HitmanLV]

I'm perfectly humble and never boasted that I had a long stream of successes with gorgeous women (go back and check).

Sound reasons are like 'this guy thinks im somehow less human, what a total arse.' It doesn't take mind reading - your view comes through in all sorts of ways, both verbal and nonverbal.

You are wrong about my key assumption: I don't think it's never the woman's fault. In fact, I explicitly said some women are just shallow and a waste of time (go back and check, again). I will say this though (smugly, even): all your interactions have one common denominator. Since they were with different women, care to guess what (HINT: or who) that common denominator was?

Your commentary and negativity reinforces my view. It's really up to you to change, or hang on to that negativity and hate all those shallow gorgeous chicks!

And on a personal note, since I tend to date attractive women, just what are you saying about a guy like me if you insist that these women are shallow and less human. It can't possibly be flattering, right?

At least consider the possibility that there are many very attractive women who have sound judgment and good taste in men.

[HitmanLV]

Some people thing very goodlooking women are somehow less than human, and wonder why very goodlooking women reject them.

And some people call me crazy.

[Victoria Delsoul]

I agree with D. H. Lawrence when he said, “Beauty is an experience, nothing else. It is not a fixed pattern or an arrangement of features. It is something felt, a glow or a communicated sense of fineness.”

Too many people are stuck on physical beauty to the point it undermines every quality a person has. That says a lot about those who insist that pretty women are usually shallow, because that's a projection of their biases rather than offer an insight into the entire population of pretty women.