Posted on 08/17/2006 8:21:56 PM PDT by xzins
'China-level' Christian persecution coming: Pastors say court's ruling in Houston Bible case 'breath-taking'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: August 17, 2006 5:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
Houston's Bible monument
A few more court decisions like this week's over a display of a Bible in Houston and the United States will be approaching the "China-level" for Christian persecution, according to a leader in the midst of that battle.
The ruling from the Fifth Court of Appeals said the display of a Bible on public ground in Houston to honor the founder of a mission has to go, not because it was unconstitutional itself, but because it became unconstitutional when a Christian group rallied around it.
The pastor's group said that means any monument, building, or even feature of nature is an illegal "establishment of religion" if a church ceremony is held there.
"Connecting the dots between the eminent domain case, which says all of your churches are up for grabs if a town wants a mall, secondly you now have been told you do not have constitutional rights in the public square," Dave Welch, executive director of the Houston Area Pastors Conference, told WorldNetDaily.
"Any kind of an event is okay, as long as you didn't express any religious faith. What is that telling you?
"We're not persecuted yet, we know that. But we're on our way there. Add that to the surprising acceptance of militant Islam, the fear of speaking against that from a Christian standpoint and then we're dangerously approaching the point where we have literally given away and yielded our freedoms that were earned," Welch said.
"We have history, law and the founding fathers who adopted the Constitution collectively affirming the truth expressed by revered Justice Joseph Story in 1840 that, 'We are not to attribute this prohibition of a national religious establishment to an indifference to religion in general, and especially to Christianity,'" said a statement issued by the pastor's group.
Welch told WND that the court's conclusion was "ludicrous" and if followed logically, could mean that a religious rally at any public building would therefore make the building unconstitutional so it would have to be removed.
The Bible was installed on county property about five decades ago in honor of William Mosher, the founder of Star of Hope Mission, and was replaced in 1996 with donated funds. However, an atheist challenged the monument, and on an appeal from the District Court decision that the Bible was unconstitutional, the appeals court carried the argument further.
Its ruling said that the monument became an unconstitutional "establishment" after a 2003 rally was held by Christians to defend the display. That rally involved prayers and clergy, the court noted.
"The ramifications of this tortured decision are breath-taking and without any historic or legitimate Constitutional rationale," said the pastors' organization. "For the court to state that if a private citizen exercises his or her First Amendment rights of religious expression and assembly on public property, that any monument, building or fixed item of any kind that contains religious references becomes 'establishment of religion' is simply irrational."
The conclusion, if applied nationwide, would result in the sandblasting of hundreds of monuments and buildings "including the capstone on the Washington Monument, which reads, 'Laus Deo,' or 'Praise be to God,'" the pastors group continued.
"For this panel majority of two justices to claim that words and actions by private citizens or elected officials with religious content, expressed about a building or monument, convert it from 'secular' and constitutional to 'sacred' and unconstitutional amounts to an act of blatant judicial activism against the freedoms and Constitution," the HAPC said.
The group Battle For The Bible also is working on the case, and Welch said there are experts on constitutional law who have been and plan to continue assisting the county in its fight over the representation of the Bible.
"They are of the opinion this needs to be appealed directly to the Supreme Court, and we're working on that right now," Welch told WND.
He called the logic "twisted" that could conclude the monument once was constitutional, but since "some action by a private citizen" it now becomes unconstitutional.
Because the atheist's lawsuit was against the county over the monument on county land, the pastors and their advisors have been assisting County Attorney Michael Stafford in the fight.
First of all I'm not sure I understood the question. But if you mean does the government have concurrent "jurisdiction" with God in matters of both politics and religion, I think I would have to refer you to Romans Chapter 13, which states that all government power (whether for good or evil) is ordained of by God. So the answer is yes. Inasmuch as the government has any power at all, it is granted to it by God.
And as far as "advisory jurisdiction" if that means does the president have the power to make recommendations regarding corporate prayer or corporate fasting, I'd have to say yes. If the president stands before the American people and requests that they join him in fasting or prayer, then I'd have to say that the president could not have made the request if it had not been ordained by God.
But again, we beat this horse 'til it died. I say let it rest in peace.
No. But if it did, then it would not have that power unless it was granted to it by God.
Do you deny that the Bible teaches such a concept?
The United States Government does not legally have power over religion. That is as God has willed it. But, for instance, in Iran and Saudi Arabia the government does have power over religion. In England the government has power over religion inasmuch as they have a state Church, however the government chooses not to exercise that power.
Whatever power any of those governments have, they would not have if it were not granted unto them by God.
Do you deny that? Is God not sovereign?
Really? You don't think that God has a hand in the powers that governments have over people? Do you think that the United States of America would even exist if it were in contradiction to God's will?
I further hold that civil government can have no sway whatsoever over the duty which we owe to our Creator.
On an individual basis that is true. But, for instance, in Saudi Arabia the government has the power to kill you if you preach the gospel. In that sense they have a lot of "sway" in regard to the duty you owe to your creator, don't they? If you don't believe it, go to Saudi Arabia and preach the gospel and then, after you are arrested, go ahead and make the claim that Saudi Arabia does not have the "power" to behead you.
Indeed it could. And sometimes Governments do speak for God. Did not God grant governmental authority to Moses? Did not Moses speak for God?
Did Pontius Pilate have authorization from God to crucify Jesus? Could Pontius Pilate have had that power unless it was given to him by God?
Does Saudi Arabia have the power to persecute Christians? Would they have that power unless it were granted unto them by God?
Do you not believe that God has, in one way or another, ordained all that comes to pass? Your handle suggests you are a "Genuine Christian". Is it not essential Christian doctrine to believe that in all things God is in control? Or are there some things that are wholly outside of God's control?
Did Pontius Pilate have authorization from God to crucify Jesus? Could Pontius Pilate have had that power unless it was given to him by God?
Does Saudi Arabia have the power to persecute Christians? Would they have that power unless it were granted unto them by God?
Do you not believe that God has, in one way or another, ordained all that comes to pass? Your handle suggests you are a "Genuine Christian". Is it not essential Christian doctrine to believe that in all things God is in control? Or are there some things that are wholly outside of God's control?
ROFL!
Are you sure you are a "Genuine Christian" Conservative?
Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. (John 19:10-11 KJV)
Does Saudi Arabia have the power to persecute Christians? Would they have that power unless it were granted unto them by God?
Do you not believe that God has, in one way or another, ordained all that comes to pass? Your handle suggests you are a "Genuine Christian". Is it not essential Christian doctrine to believe that in all things God is in control? Or are there some things that are wholly outside of God's control?
That may be true, but he did have the God-given power and authority to crucify him as is witnessed by the fact that he did crucify him.
The fact is that God specifically and sovereignly placed Pilate in the position of Governor of Judea and God sovereignly gave Pilate the authority to crucify Christ. If God had not given him the power and authority to crucify Christ, then Christ would not have been crucified.
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. (John 19:10-11 KJV)
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