Posted on 07/28/2006 1:17:42 PM PDT by sergey1973
When Kazakh President Nursultan Nazarbayev visited Riga on July 18, the overriding topic of discussion was how best to send Kazakh oil to energy-hungry markets in Europe and Scandinavian via Latvia. Nazarbayev did his best to give the impression of a pragmatic leader unburdened by the political strains caused by the long-standing disputes between his closest ally -- Moscow -- and West European powers over energy issues. His time in Riga provided an impressive display of his multi-vector approach to interstate relations. Answering questions from Latvian journalists, Nazarbayev stressed that Kazakhstan has no intention of constructing a transportation route to deliver its hydrocarbons to Europe that would bypass Russia, and he noted that his country is quite satisfied with the present level of cooperation with Moscow, regarding the use of Russian pipelines for oil shipments. At the same time, he added, “We will look for other possibilities if these [Russian] routes do not satisfy us” (Kursiv, July 19).
(Excerpt) Read more at jamestown.org ...
Still trying to figure Kazakhstan out.
The Kazakhs are close military allies of Russia as of right now.
I don't think they're all that happy about Russia, but, when the big dog barks...
I like the sound of this guy. He reminds me of an old school Texas governor. "Everything is just peachy the way it is, but if there is a time when something might just improve things... well, that'd be just fine too!
The Kazakhs are close military allies of Russia as of right now.==
You should look into history. In 18 century Kazakhs was on the verge of extinction because of the eastern invasion. The invaders was chinese. They begged russian czar to let them into Russian Empire. Russia got them and saved them by her military force. Later Russians teached Kazakhs everything they know today. Russians built all Kazakh towns.
So you may figure what they think about Russia. They may be unhappy and everything with Russia time to time but they will not betray her. They are not georgians.
Kazakhstan was the most loyal of the Soviet republics during the USSR. Belarus was second.
It is no wonder that these two countries want back into the Russian orbit.
Kazakhstan was the most loyal of the Soviet republics during the USSR. Belarus was second. ==
You should check the "Alma-ata disorders" during Brezhnev times in Dec 17-18, 1986.
Same times there were anti-soviet huge demonstrations in Minsk.
And in late 1980th there happens the firstever coal miners strikes in Sibiria. It is Russia.
Note: You won't find nothing of such proportions happened in Kiev at same times.
So much for loaylty to soviets.
It is no wonder that these two countries want back into the Russian orbit.==
Both kazakhs and beloruses maybe loayl to russians but were not to soviets.
I hope that you'll straighten up you facts hence impove your understanding of Russian matters:).
All things considered your usage of that word "betray" is an interesting one.
How have the Georgians betrayed Russia? It is Russia who betrayed the Georgians when the made war on them unprovoked in Abkhazia and helped the jihadist Basayev ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Georgians from their land. They were rewarded for supporting this Christian-killing animal at Beslan.
It is Russia who betrayed the Georgians when the made war on them unprovoked in Abkhazia and helped the jihadist Basayev ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands of Georgians from their land. ==
Joe:) with all due respect you should check WHO started the wars in Abkhazia and S.Osetia(georgians).
Georgians lost wars they started. Russia accually saved lifes of thousands and thousands of Georgians by defending thier evacuation from Akhazia. Russia saved the life of Shevardnadze personally so I think he is not deserved that and did lot of dirties to Russia later.
Georgian problem was that they always were ultra-nationalists (same today) and they talk about "Great Georgia". But those 2 lands: Abkhazia and S.Osetia was attached to Georgia by Stalin. It was never georgian.
So when Georgians started to talk about thier "Great Georgia" then all minorities went out of Georgia. Akhazies and Osetians went out with thier lands.
If you check ethnical structure of Georgia then find that it is all mono-ethnical except Akhazia and S.Osetia. But before 1991 their were many peoples of different ethnicities.
For example: Georgians refused to accept the Meshketian Turks which was expelled from Georgia by Stalin in 1950th so today American goverment accepted them as refugees. Check it. It is so obvious facts.
Today Georgians want just Akhazia and Osetia by force. They disregard the opinions of local population. So it will be new bloody wars. Even Georgians could occupy thier abkhazian and osetians towns and billages they will turn to guerilla war for decades.
It will be lot and lot of lifes lost. Like Arab-israeli wars.
You might as well say Russia started the war with Chechnya. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Georgia, not Russia. If Russia can crush separatists, then so can Georgia. Georgia started no fight with Russia, but Russia supported separatists in Georgian civil war UNPROVOKED. Russia did this purely out of malice and desire to steal Georgian land.
Make whatever rationalizations for Russia's criminal occupation and annexation of Georgia's sovereign territory, this is not Russian land and Russians are foreign invaders there. Russia has stuck its nose into someone else's war. Russia has already suffered the blowback from supporting Basayev's evil jihad against Georgia, but still they refuse to repent and learn the error of their ways. It is exactly because of Russia's hypocrisy and double standard regarding separatism and national sovereignty that the world does not sympathize with Russia concerning Chechnya.
You might as well say Russia started the war with Chechnya. Abkhazia and South Ossetia are Georgia, not Russia. ==
The northern part of Chechnya was attached to them by same Stalin which attached the lands of Abkhazia and Osetia to Georgia. If we say that Stalin is evil then his decision of land are evil too.
Look like Stalin sowed many seeds of ethnical conflicts of today.
Georgia started no fight with Russia, but Russia supported separatists in Georgian civil war UNPROVOKED. ==
The problem is that Abkhazians and Osetians has many friends and relatives between other small ethnicities of nothern Caucausus. Those came in big numbers to help when Georgians attacked.
Russia' federal power did nothing to prevent it. It is true. But those who fought with Georgians was volonteers of Feredation of North Caucausian ethnicites. Surprisingly Shamil Basaev was one of those volanteers.
The federal forces got involved in it only when georgian refugees evacuated from Akhazia by keeping them from the advancing troops of Akhazis which could do big atrocities over them.
Make whatever rationalizations for Russia's criminal occupation and annexation of Georgia's sovereign territory, this is not Russian land and Russians are foreign invaders there.==
It is lands of Akhzians and Osetians. Why you refuse to accept thier rights? I really wonder:).
Those lands is no need for Russia. You may understand it if you look onto map of Russia. Why Russia needs 2 small patches of land? Russian troops there today on peacekeeping mission only.
It is exactly because of Russia's hypocrisy and double standard regarding separatism and national sovereignty that the world does not sympathize with Russia concerning Chechnya. ==
Concerning Chechnya I would say that Russia shouldn't try to keep all Chechnya. Russia should keep her Kazak lands on the north of river Terek only which was splitted from her by Stalin. And let other parts of Chechnya go. Same for Ingushetia and Balkaria. It is all muslim parts of Caucausus and no need for Russia.
I just repeat for you: "Georgian problem was that they always were ultra-nationalists (same today) and they talk about "Great Georgia". But those 2 lands: Abkhazia and S.Osetia was attached to Georgia by Stalin. It was never georgian."
If America help Georgians to overcome thier nationalism then those 2 small nations (Akhazains and Osetians) may agree to be parts of Georgia.
If Georgia will try to coeirce 2 small nation by military force then we will see wars for decades and lot of blood spilled.
Abkhazians and Osetians has many friends and relatives between other small ethnicities of nothern Caucausus.
Yes, like the Chechens. They support Abkhazia because they want hundreds of thousands of the descendants of Abkhazian muslims exiled to Turkey in the 1800's to return and help them establish a Caucasian Caliphate.
Russia crushes Chechen independence to maintain Russia's borders and then support the Chechens in their war to dismember Georgia. Disgusting hypocrisy.
Why you refuse to accept thier rights?
Why doesn't Russia recognize them as an independent nation then? (because they plan to steal these territories for themselves)
Why doesn't any nation in the world, including Russia, recognize these legitimacy of these ethnic separatist regimes?
Instead Georgia and America will help Russia get over its nationalism, and send the Russian invaders back to Russia.
Instead Georgia and America will help Russia get over its nationalism, and send the Russian invaders back to Russia.==
So Georgian real nationalism is OK but Russian is not?:)
I disagree Joe. Russia don't need those territories neither Georgia but Abkhazians and Osetians. After all remember Akhazians only partly muslim as Georgian themselves they are partly muslim too. Osetians are fully christians.
Russian troops there on peacekeeping mission. Keep the regions out of war. If Russia withdraws then tomorrow there will be new wars which will continue for decades. And again those small nations of nothern Caucausus will fight with Georgian there helping Abkhazians and Osetians. Russia will again do nothing to stop it. Why should she if you plan tyo drive her back? She may perfectly "wash her hands" and let you fight countless number of caucausian guerillas:).
Accually I don't care. I know that Russian goverments of Eltsin and Putin today make same mistake. Got involved into conflicts which Russia has nothing to gain or lose. Russia needs to concentrate on herself but she spends lot of resources on other people business besides those people will not thank Russia if she save them. I saw it before.
It is all like arabo-israeli conflicts. It will continue for decades from now without no resolving.
By the way America does same mistake with Middle East. She got involved into this which brought her under the terrorist attacks of 911. (you won't deny that the support of Israel make her the enemy of islamic people?) Count now how many resources and money was squandered from this moment on. What better it did? Nothing. It is only increasing.
I only said that to make you think about how you might like someone telling you to "overcome" your own nationalism. The simple fact is that Georgians are fighting for nationalism while the Russians are fighting only for imperialism, to impose their will not within their own country's borders, but outside those borders.
Of course Russia does not "need" these lands. They commit this crime only to injure the Georgians they resent for "betraying" them. How Georgia has betrayed Russia you have yet to explain.
Yes Putin has continued Yeltsin's insane policies. Putinists like to contrast the two, as if Yeltsin was imposed on Russia by the west, but Putin was Yeltsin's chosen successor and has only continued Yelstin's barbarous rapacity.
I disagree that Russia prevents war. Their presence insures that the conflict will continue without resolution. Just as in the mideast, "peacekeepers" are actually only supporters of one side of the conflict. Russia should not worry about "what if" but about the safety of its soldiers used in Georgia as human shields. Have you not heard that two Russian peacekeepers have been killed in Abkhazia just yesterday? Russia should stop trying to be the ex-Soviet space's policeman and let the Abkhazians and Chechens fight their own war for an islamic caliphate.
The simple fact is that Georgians are fighting for nationalism while the Russians are fighting only for imperialism, to impose their will not within their own country's borders, but outside those borders.==
Joe again those lands are neither russian nor georgian. Why you still refuse rights of Abkhazians and Osetians on that land? It was Stalin decision to join those lands with Georgia. If we condemn Stalin then we shouldn't support his decisions.
I disagree that Russia prevents war. Their presence insures that the conflict will continue without resolution. Just as in the mideast, "peacekeepers" are actually only supporters of one side of the conflict. ===
Of cause the peace on Caucausus or Middle East is always something which cann't satisfy completely neither of sides.
The peacekeepers are just conserve situation. And I disagree that they are supporters of one side. They are thier under agreement with BOTH sides.
Now since one side do not want it anymore Russia should withdraw peacekeepers.
But there are lot of russian citizens. What to do with it?
Russia should not worry about "what if" but about the safety of its soldiers used in Georgia as human shields. Have you not heard that two Russian peacekeepers have been killed in Abkhazia just yesterday? ==
Yeah and the salary was stolen. It is the robbery.
Russia should stop trying to be the ex-Soviet space's policeman and let the Abkhazians and Chechens fight their own war for an islamic caliphate.==
I agree with this. Russia should concentrate on herself only.
Abkhazia was part of Georgia before it was annexed by the Russian Empire in the early 1800's. After the collapse of the Empire it went back to Georgia. It was not a part of Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic. It was conquered by the Bolsheviks in 1921 along with the rest of free Georgia. It was then part of the Georgian SSR well before Stalin even came to power. This land was not Stalin's to "give" to Georgia. It was already Georgia.
Abkhazia was part of Georgia before it was annexed by the Russian Empire in the early 1800's. ==
If you accept the idea that is propaganded by Georgia that abkhazies are georgian tribe then you maybe right here:).
But unfortunately abkhazians has thier own language which is very different of georgian language and abhazies doesn't mean themselves as georgians. They are accually the ethinical brothers to lot of small northern caucausian tribes which came to thier help during first akhazi-georgian war (1992-1993).
I visited Sukhum town long ago during soviet times. Once I spoke with one guy there and called him a "georgian". He interupped me immidiately and solemnly told that he is "NOT georgian but abkazi". It was said such strictly that I understood that I offended him deeply by calling him a "georgian". I appologised and did never call him and his friends the "georgians" again.
It was even before Soviet Union gone. But in that times there were the counterversy and dislike between Akhazis and georgians.
Now it came to total hatred because of Georgia started bloody war which brought many deaths between abkhazies. I know abkazies payed in turn. But always those side which started is guilty of all consequances.
So akhzies hate georgians outright. We can nothing to do with it. So the 2d akhazi-georgian war will continue until one side totaly be disappeared.
I think Russia will not let it happen. Again there would be lot of volunteers from the Federation of Caucausus etinicities but now armed with latest russian weaponry. It will be total guerilla war. Georgia will lose again.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.