Posted on 07/25/2006 10:52:10 PM PDT by neverdem
When Alcoholics Anonymous and other 12-step programs are examined in controlled studies, a new review reports, scientists find no proof that they are superior to any other intervention in reducing alcohol dependence or alcohol-related problems.
The researchers, led by Marica Ferri of the Italian Agency for Public Health in Rome, found little to suggest that 12-step programs reduced the severity of addiction any more than any other intervention. And no data showed that 12-step interventions were any more — or any less — successful in increasing the number of people who stayed in treatment or reducing the number who relapsed after being sober.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a self-help group that offers emotional support for alcohol abstinence and holds that alcoholism is a spiritual and a medical disease.
In some of the studies reviewed, A.A. was compared with other psychological treatments including cognitive-behavioral therapy, which encourages the conscious identification of high-risk situations for alcohol use; motivational enhancement therapy, based on principles of social and cognitive psychology; and relapse prevention therapy, a variation on the cognitive-behavioral approach. It was also compared with other spiritual and nonspiritual 12-step programs.
One study compared brief advice to attend A.A. meetings to motivational methods for encouraging 12-step involvement. Another evaluated the effectiveness of hospital-based 12-step programs, compared with community-based 12-step efforts.
The paper was published last week in The Cochrane Library, a journal devoted to systematic reviews of health care interventions. In all, the researchers examined eight trials involving 3,417 men and women ages 18 and older.
None of the studies compared A.A. with no treatment at all, and the researchers said that made it more difficult to draw conclusions about effectiveness. About one-fifth of alcoholics achieve long-term sobriety without treatment.
There is no single known cause of alcoholism, but the researchers wrote that...
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
<< ... AA works, great! If (you won't) and (will not become abstinent) you may need a really competent
psychiatrist to "diagnose" the "real problem." >>
Crap.
YOU are the ONLY problem.
And will need someone to change your diapers and/or an undertaker.
Unarrested Alcoholism is an incurable, progressive and invariably fatal disease.
You wrote, "...I'll be celebrating my 36th consecutive year of sobriety this September."
God bless you. I once heard an oldtimer celebrating 30 years of continuous sobriety who, when asked how he did it, said, 'Don't drink and don't die.'
I loved that answer. Early in recovery at the time, it was something I could get my (very screwed up) head around.
With all due respect, were you drinking when you posted this? My response was about the disease called alcoholism. It was not about all drinking, and I see no reason you couldn't get that from what I wrote. After all, I was responding in a thread about alcoholism to a post by you that referred to alcoholics. It almost couldn't have been more plain.
You are confusing an activity many people enjoy without the slightest trouble with a disease that wrecks lives, and you seem to think we're weird because we haven't made the same error. As for the disease aspect, I think trebb's peanut butter post said exactly what needed to be said.
That's an entirely different meeting!
If they simply drank too much and could cut back (a situation I used to be in) it wouldn't be called an addiction.
A friend of mine came to a similar conclusion. He came back from Vietnam and switched from weed to beer because beer's legal. When he realized he had a problem, he tried AA, but then went off on his own and beat it. He hasn't had a drink since the early Seventies.
Indeed.
Sure there is, it's called DRINKING.
Absolutely. I've only attended "open" meetings, but I'm familiar with the program, and that stuff about not being in control is never presented as "it's someone else's fault," it's presented as "don't pretend you can fix this by yourself." Of course, almost by definition you have to be a wretched example of a human being by the time you get to AA, and a small percentage of folks keep their wretchedness after the alcohol is gone.
If it were a cult wouldn't sponsees actually do what their sponsors suggest?
Cordially,
I just thought I would add I've been in AA for 20 years, my wife for 19. We are happy and successful. I don't know about other programs, but this one saved my life -- hers too!
Whatever you do, if you have a problem, I hope you find an answer. God bless you.
"Well..OK, fine..but the meetings are only a buck. Wonder what cognitive therapy's going to cost me?"
Bingo. My wife got a DUI and by the time we were done with the court ordered therapy, the cost was over $7000. Of course, it didn't work.
They even hauled my butt in for a couples meeting with a therapist. The therapist asked me why I stay with a woman who drinks. Um... She's my wife?
At the Battle of Franklin, Confederate General John Bell Hood faced John McAllister Schofield, a West Point classmate ofHood's. Schofield had gathered the Union troops behind fixed fortifications. Hood had his men repeatedly charge the fortifications over large open fields that left them exposed to withering fire, and some parts of the Union line withstood 13 different charges. Hood’s horrible error cost him 6,000 men, including six Generals and 53 regimental commanders. There is some speculation that his judgment in these two battles was affected by laudanum, an opium-based painkiller, given to help with the pain from his amputations, and it was certain that he was taking it.
This isn't an argument against your point, but it came to mind when I read your post.
Drinking may be a response to a physical or a psychological problem. I was just suggesting an alternative
that may lead to "not drinking".
Whether that's medication, psychobabble "therapy", fishing, bowling, religion, whatever.
Not every one can be strong enough to quit on their own.
Heck, the g.d. so called professional educators dissuade individualism and achievement.
Is that the only thing about AA that you cant stand.
One reason would be the absolute authority given to AA by the courts. Some DUI offenders are sentenced to attend x amount of meetings. That puts AA right up there with prisons and fines in some people's mind.
jiggyboy, you will not find in my post that I refer to alcoholism as a disease. I don't believe it's a disease because I know of no instance in medical history where a disease is cured by telling God you can't control its existence or progression, and then working to depend on Him to keep you from repeating the activity (drinking) that will kill you. This formula DOES work for addictions.
Alcoholism IS, however, a physical addiction. It creates cravings in people who are addicted. Alcohol changes the way addicts think and act.
My grandfather died from complications from alcoholism after contributing greatly to the destruction of the lives of everyone near him. I have relatives by marriage who are horribly addicted. Not one of these people has sought treatment.
I went to Al-Anon, the support group for people whose lives are being wrenched around by the drinking of people close to them. Al-Anon uses a modified form of the AA's 12 Steps and teachings. It was so liberating to me that to this day I still rely on what I learned there; its truth and messages are in my marrow.
I've seen lives destroyed by alcohol. Conversely, going to Al-Anon and having friends in AA and Al-Anon, I've seen people reclaim their lives by the truths these marvelous organizations proclaim. I also know horror stories of people who went to AA and didn't ever "get" that most important step, admitting they couldn't control their drinking, and turning things over to a higher power (God) for help.
Shame on the "The New York Times" for publishing this garbage; the author clearly did not research the program effectively enough. The "controlled studies" were flawed, and anyone seriously intent on finding the facts would realize how flawed they are. AA and related organizations have long track records of success for people who truly apply the 12 Steps.
tommix2, you're welcome, and thanks back. The thread got off to a bad start quickly and needed some adjusting in the form of facts.
And thank you for posting that. In 1985, a 30 day spin dry, NA (primarily), and AA (secondarily) saved my life. But most importantly, it started me on a path that led me to being born again. Eventually, God got me to a place where the 12 steps never took -- a complete removal of the obsession and desire to drink and use drugs.
Some have stated that 12-step programs can be a form of replacement addiction -- looking back on it, I see that was where I was at in the late '80s. I don't recommend my path to anyone else, but I thoroughly believe it was for a purpose. People that had a life like mine in their teens and 20's don't get to have a life like mine in their 40's. Except if God wills it.
Today, I try to live as a follower of Christ -- I do a few things for my church, but my Savior's burden is much lighter than my "daily program for recovery" was circa 1989. And I don't obsess about what I can't do anymore. It hardly ever occurs to me.
God Bless you -- may your sober years be many and filled with joy.
God bless you, and congratulations!
It depends on the group. The Al-Anon group I went to (I tried several and settled on the one that was the least afraid to say Jesus was the real help in the program) did lots of work-arounds to keep Jesus as the Head of the program.
I don't know what it's like today, but when I was going to Al-Anon, they still let you quote Scripture if it was quoted in the Al-Anon or AA literature, and the people who ran the group made liberal use of that.
An awful lot depends on the spiritual maturity and faith in Christ of the people who put the meetings together, and of one's individual sponsor (having faith in Christ or not).
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