F-35 Versus European Competition

Strategy Page ^ | 14 jun 06 | Anon

[Red6]

It’s well known that Germany pays “Ransom” and is “Erpressbar”.

http://www.welt.de/data/2006/05/10/884748.html

Even in Iraq the US shakes its head and looks the other way as you have already done this there too. Let me explain this to you like this. Today you define your strength by opposing people whose interests you share, who you know will not really blow themselves up in some building or run amok. Helmut Schmidt is still alive, what must be going through the head of the political driving force behind the GSG9 Mogadishu intervention?

Look at Libya! Were ‘YOU’, who was in range of their missile any part of the answer? No.

You are dying.

• Unemployment
• GDP growth
• Decaying infrastructure – roads, schools, water.
• No kids and aging population
• Shrinking military
• Your language is fading away in engineering, medicine, science, flight, defense and politics.
• R&D spending is declining
• Germany’s influence within the EU, NATO, UN, Middle East, Africa, Asia, South or Latin America is decreasing.
• Per Capita Disposable Incomes are dropping.
• The number of patents or copyrights are not rising and keeping pace with others.
• Look at the crime statistics and how they have risen.
• Growing Muslim non-European culture populations.

It is nearly hard to find any argument to justify a long term positive trend! All indicators point down or are set to ‘stagnate’.

Germany is declining while the rest of the world is moving on. Within 20 years China and India will have passed you and you’ll be the 5th largest economy. It is probable that within 30 years you’ll be the 7th largest economy. You are beginning to be pushed aside.

-

It’s all about culture. Great societies implode from within. Even the US has huge and a significant struggle within. However, unlike Germany we are not “as” infected with this disease call ‘socialism’.

1. Vast open spaces and a pioneer spirit that evolved in the times of Westward expansion are still at least somewhat alive. Many of those who even came to the US were those fleeing oppression and government. Those who moved west typically were aggressive people whose life or even death depended on them, not some government entitlement. The immigrant who came to the US in 1820 often hoped to move west, claim land and his own survival depended upon his own work. If you go to places like Alaska, Montana, Texas, you to this day still see these cultural traits present outside of metropolitan areas.

2. The socialist movements never hit the US as they did Europe. The US was an isolationist state at the time or Marx, Freud, Nietzsche, Lenin and others.

Europe was rocked by strong socialist currents.

a. The US didn’t have the socialist revolts in the late 1840s. Even France’s revolution of 1848 was a socialist one, something that historians really don’t put into proper perspective.
b. The US didn’t have the national socialist movement as in the 1930s (Hitler, Franco, and Mussolini). Years later, the national socialists internalized many of the socialist ideas and way of thinking but they added the flavor of “nationalism” to it.
c. The US was not occupied by communists as in Eastern Europe and even the former subjects of the DDR. The US was not blasted with radio Moscow, didn’t have the Communist Revolutionary Front (That was largely funded from behind the Curtin) operating within them. There were no “Junge Pioniere”. Even the iron curtain was not air tight. Besides those who still managed to flee at great risk to life, dedicated communists were also allowed to travel to the West since this also served as a good propaganda tool. Of course they could never do so with all their family.

Germany, in fact much of Europe is very heavily ‘socialist’ influenced, even if they don’t see it, or deny it. Some, such as the French current government even claim to be national socialists, most Germans like Atlantic Bridge think along similar lines but despise the words because of the conditioned response they are told to have. In Germany the evil of the holocaust and the cause of war, fanaticism, etc has all been pinned on nationalism yet the socialist idea lives on and is waived around as if it is a great thing. Political leaders, parties and others use the word “socialist” in public discourse on TV radio and print as if this is great and the people buy it. Why? Because the word “socialist” itself has no negative meaning in Germany. Call someone a “socialist” in the US, even if they are, they will deny it, just like Atlantic Bridge feels compelled to deny his National Socialistic tendencies.

Why does all this matter and how does it tie in?

Socialism: this dogma, this “religions ersatz”, is the root on much if not most of Germany’s true problems. In economic terms to the Trans Atlantic relationship, Germany’s love affair with socialism is at least to a large degree one of the driving forces behind the problem. Socialism is more than an economic system; it’s ultimately a political and even a religious movement! You will seldom find a European socialist who is pro American, even in the Cold War. The US is the antithesis of socialism, even though we ourselves are no pure capitalistic system either. Even Hitler (yes, contrary to the German thought, he was a socialist and the National Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei as a whole was) called the US part of “Das gross Judentum”.

To be socialist in all actually means that someone is anti-God, anti-free economy, anti-democracy. Mao, the Soviets, Hitler, or yes even the new German self proclaimed peace loving intellectual socialist, they are anti-God. Ask a die hard German socialist one time what his position on religion is. I suggest you try it, instead of just “Grosse Sprueche klopfen”.

The decline of Germany is a in a relationship to the decay of its moral fabric, the values of society and its culture. “Der Ami” is not at fault for the “Null Bock” culture, the Monday and Friday absenteeism, rampant drug use (Hashish), love parades, Wahre Liebe, or Liebe Suende. “Der Ami” didn’t elect Joschka Fischer and Schroeder. “Der Ami” is Germany’s new Jew. They are Germany’s new “Suendenbock”. From high oil prices, global warming, or a terrorist threat, it’s the Americans that are “somehow” at fault for it in the mind of the new enlightened German. Does the German ever ask the question though if a “love parade” and open mindedness to gays may also somehow be undermining the foundation of a family? Do people really question the abuse of social programs? Do people take personal responsibility? Do people even “want” to be personally responsible for anything!?

How does socialism tie into this? Think about it really hard.

--

As to your future- You will malinger. You will just lie there and exist, and if nothing “substantial” changes, you will just fade away over time.

When cultures die, they usually are not aware of their dying. Had you lived in Rome or the British Empire as they were fading, had you asked a native it their culture, their empire, their world is in decay; you would have gotten an emphatic or strange look at such a question. Today in Germany people accept the stench of death in their country and they don’t see it.

[Rummenigge]

I don't know who your posting is adressed to - I can't fathom that you spend your time compiling facts & fiction to me to make me believe that germans are all alike and the scum of the earth.

As long as you don't give me a clue on your motivation - why your are posting these things to me I don't feel the urge to discuss them with you.

You are no friend of germany - this is clear. So what's my motivation to listen to you ?

I know our dark sides much better then you do. But I can change things here - because a) I live here b) I care for this country. Much more important - I know the bright sides, too.

So why are you trying to speak german ? To be poisonous ? To convince people to leave from germany ? In this case don't write to me ever again.

Or do you find a secrete love for this country - for things that you actually liked here ? This is hard to believe from your postings. I would exclude this.

Your criticism is worthless - because I don't feel any constructiveness in it.

Tell me: Was she a stunner ?

[Red6]

Well, you are right; we are having problems with all those Germans trying to get out of that socialist nightmare you've created. But we do have a green-card raffle which you to could enter if you want to better your economic position. Or you can stay in Germany, hope to get a job “possibly” and think you made it because all you can afford is a compact Mercedes like every other Turk living there. I really don’t understand how you guys make it in those small efficiency homes.

Are you having aggression issues because you’re living on top of one another like rats? I have read those studies that show aggressive behavior ensues when people live to close together for to long. Bottom line remains that you’re sinking.

You are ignorant. That's not an opinion anymore. You are emotional and sound like a woman on her period. Then again, I understand that many German men are effeminate. Are you gay?

As I mentioned before, I believe WWI, WWII, the Holocaust, and the mass exodus of people in the 1950s have left Germany genetically depleted. All that’s left are gay socialists and other weirdoes. The viable stock was killed off or left. Decades of reverse social and genetic evolution have left Germany looking like Ernie Rheinhart.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilo_Wanders . Am I really so far off? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_Westerwelle

BTW-My wife didn’t run off with anyone. We have been happily married for 14 years. However, I have noticed that many of your women sure have a preference for the African American soldiers I had working for me. But that’s good. Maybe that will inject some new healthy genetic stock into your centuries of inbreeding.

Pack your bags my friend. You’re going away. You’re going where others like you have ended, in a history book.

[Red6]

"So why are you trying to speak german ? To be poisonous ? To convince people to leave from germany ? In this case don't write to me ever again." You ask.

Though German is a less refined and guttural language, I do try to practice it. It is important to be well rounded and though you are a heathen and savage, I do like to have some insight into you mind.

After all, people do think in words, and words do have meaning. So the only way to truly understand someone is to understand their language. For example: Schaumschläger is a very descriptive and quite accurate word to describe you and there truly is no English equivalent.

[Rummenigge]

You feel hate so deeply that you even spend days and days learning the language of those you hate, talking to strangers and making up fantasy lives for them.

Thinking of apocalyptic scenarious in which your object of hate perishes right in front of your eyes. The evil and degenerated german - not worth a thought but still governing your mind...

You have worked hard for your agony.

[Red6]

I love Germany!

Can you do the Schuhplattler? I also like Cuckoo clocks. There are many things I like about Germany.

- Sometimes it’s not those who tell you the truth that are your enemy.

In my world Germany would never have closed its nuclear power plants and played games the way they did years ago. Even then while I was still in Germany I loudly stated that this was a moronic idea. Germany would be more energy independent, would still be number one in the civilian commercial nuclear power industry.

In my world Germany would not be militarily weak. Germany would be an active and large scale player on the international stage. Even issues like East Timor Germany would have played a much more significant role in than they did. The “schmarotzer” status of today would not be there.

In my world the VAT would have NEVER EVER have risen above 14% and in fact I years ago when things were still “ok” was making the case that this policy was economically non-viable. Taxes need to DROP, state ownership needs to DROP, and subsidies need to FALL AWAY. Things like the Pflegeversicherung would have never come, there would be no GEZ and there would be no “Hundesteuer”. What kind of gay BS is that! Tax some kids dog! That’s ridiculous. I am a capitalist who yet understands a need for some social services. The “ordentliche sozial politik” is Germany’s own created economic nightmare.

Germany took a left turn in the late 60s and after the “Wende” it only got worse. Germany’s root problem is systemic and culturally based. People are accountable for their actions and things like Schroeder gas deals (While he shook the finger at the Bush oil Cowboy) would be unacceptable. This man belongs in front of a court for “Landesverrat”.

The US German relations and even largely your demise are related to your own self flagellating, anti God, anti-family, socialist social undertones and movements. We have them in the US too. Just they are less. The George Soros in the US are less prominent and abundant as in Germany. When people take their families to go see the local “love parade” floats, should we really be surprised that they are no longer having children? Seriously!? How “sozial” is it when you take 200 Euro from a families pocket, give them 100 back and call that Kindergeld? This is a “joke”!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregor_Gysi

These are the people today defining Germany. Germany has been taken over. It has been hijacked by whacko’s. Continue your trend and you “will” fade away into obscurity, regardless of what you think of me. You are at a point where mediocrity has become acceptable.

Rio Reiser hat es nicht besser sagen können. Wenn ich nur Koening von Deutschland wäre. Ich würde ein Par Kleinichkeiten ändern.

[skraut]

Heck, some more rants about Germany and the devilish Commie-Nazi-etc Germans from Red6. Are there some German posters left over on these threads you didn't try to insult actually ?
Anyway, I especially enjoyed your downfall scenarios about Germany. Pure comedy and pretty entertaining.
But there are still questions creeping up : What is the reason for this? Or in other words: What happened to you in Germany? Did you fall into a Sauerkraut kettle and nobody helped you out?.
Just being curious !!

[Rummenigge]

That's what I was trying to pull out of his nose.

Anyhow noone would learn a language and post pages of pages constructing multidimensional horror scenarios shooting at anything german if he didn't somehow care about it.

It's like the germans with blue jeans, gps navigation working for siemens or mercedes, having enjoyed the 66 by Motorcycle and beaches of florida yet blabbing on about the stupid fat americans like michael moore was all they ever read.

Maybe he tries to be a german Michael Moore ?

Maybe it's because Claudia Rot tried to seduce him... I don't know.

Heck he maybe cares more about germany then many germans.

I'd rather have that then the 'what ever' fraction (positive thinking ;-))

[Rummenigge]

Well - although you insult me, misinterpret me, don't recognize the meaning of my postings because you don't care to think about it yet answering on questions I never posed -trying to twist anything in an anti german way to win a fight of words noone except you is fighting - yet I certainly don't consider you an enemy or hostile, because I don't believe your hate.

You are just to contradictious ambitionate and germanophile to be as hostile as your pretend to be.

You ever come to my place you'll get Hefeweizen on my small socialistic purse, we can rent a compact mercedes to get you to the biergarten if you like (but I will never do Schuhplattler).

[skraut]

'' Maybe it's because Claudia Rot tried to seduce him...''

Now, that would be the ultimate punishment!! LOL

[Red6]

OK, um dir es klar zu machen was hier vor sich geht und wie der “Deutsche” den Zweiten Welt Krieg sich betrachtet.

Die USA Kaempften im Pazifik Primaer mit ihrer „surface“ Marine. Das Uboot war fuer die US Navy nicht der Zentrale Punkt der Marine. Man ging „Island Hopping“ und der Kreig wurde von Surface vesseles entschieden. Das Uboot ist ein mehr defensives Mittel besonders zur der Zeit. Der Grossteil der US Resourcen wurde fuer den bau von Flugzeigtraeger, Schlachtschiffe, Zerstoerer, PT, und logistik Schiffe verwendete. (Liberty Ships: http://www.usmm.org/libertyships.html ) Ohne logistik, passiert nichts in Europa oder im Pazifik auf Land. Von diesen Schiffen allein wurden mehr wie 2,700 stueck gebaut!

Jedoch, sogar im berreich der Uboote, waren die USA nicht in einer benachteiligten Position. Wieder muss man betonnen das Deutschland sich schon lange bevor 1941 sich fuer einen Krieg vorbereitete.

Die Weltanschaung eines Menschen ist hald gepraegt duch seine Erfahrungen und seine Umwelt. Ich habe nie Pluto gesehen, ich war nie dort, jedoch weis ich das es diesen Planeten gibt. Das Problem mit den Argumenten die du bringst ist das man immer nur die eine Seite sieht. Beispiel: Die US hatten vor Kriegs begin Uboote im dienst jedoch wurden zusaetzlich all diese Uboote waerend des Krieges „fertig und in diest“ gestellt.

Gato (SS.212)
Greenling (SS.213)
Grouper (SS.214)
Growler (SS.215)
Grunion (SS.216)
Guardfish (SS.217)
Albacore (SS.218)
Amberjack (SS.219)
Barb (SS.220)
Blackfish (SS.221)
Bluefish (SS.222)
Bonefish (SS.223)
Cod (SS224)
Cero (SS225)
Corvina (SS226)
Darter(SS227)
Drum (SS228)
Flying Fish (SS229)
Finback (SS230)
Haddock (SS231)
Halibut (SS232)
Herring (SS233)
Kingfish (SS234)
Shad (SS235)
Silversides (SS236)
Trigger (SS237)
Wahoo (SS238)
Whale (SS239)
Angler (SS240)
Bashaw (SS241)
Bluegill (SS242)
Bream (SS243)
Cavalla (SS244)
Cobia (SS245)
Croaker (SS246)
Dace (SS247)
Dorado (SS248)
Flasher (SS249)
Flier (SS250)
Flounder (SS251)
Gabilan (SS252)
Gunnel (SS253)
Gurnard (SS254)
Haddo (SS255)
Hake (SS256)
Harder (SS257)
Hoe (SS258)
Jack (SS259)
Lupon (SS260)
Mingo (SS261)
Muskallunge (SS262)
Paddle (SS263)
Pargo (SS264)
Peto (SS265)
Pogy (SS266)
Pompon (SS267)
Puffer (SS268)
Rasher (SS269)
Raiton (SS270)
Ray (SS271)
Redfin (SS272)
Robalo (SS273)
Rock (SS274)
Runner (SS275)
Sawfish (SS276)
Scamp (SS277)
Scorpion (SS278)
Snook (SS279)
Steelhead (SS280)
Sunfish (SS281)
Tunny (SS282)
Tinosa (SS283)
Tullibee (SS284)
Balao (SS285)
Billfish (SS286)
Bowfin (SS287)
Cabrilla (SS288)
Capelin (SS289)
Cisco (SS290)
Crevalle (SS291)
Devilfish (SS292)
Dragonet (SS293)
Escolar (SS294)
Hackleback (SS295)
Lancetfish (SS296)
Ling (SS297)
Lionfish (SS298)
Manta (SS299)
Moray (SS300)
Roncador (SS301)
Sabalo (SS302)
Sablefish (SS303)
Seahorse (SS304)
Skate (SS305)
Tang (SS306)
Tilefish (SS307)
Apagon (SS308)
Aspro (SS309)
Batfish (SS310)

Archerfish (SS311)
Burrfish (SS312)
Perch (SS313)
Shark (SS314)
Sealion (SS315)
Barbel (SS316)
Barbero (SS316)
Baya (SS318)
Becuna (SS319)
Bergall (SS320)
Besugo (SS321)
Blackfin (SS322)
Caiman (SS323)
Blenny (SS324)
Blower (SS325)
Blueback (SS326)
Boarfish (SS327)
Charr (SS328)
Chub (SS329)
Brill (SS330)
Bugara (SS331)
Bulhead (SS332)
Bumper (SS333)
Cabezon (SS334)
Dentuda (SS335)
Capitaine (SS336)
Carbonero (SS337)
Carp (SS338)
Catfish (SS339)
Entemedor (SS340)
Chivo (SS341)
Chopper (SS340)
Clamagore (SS343)
Cobbler (SS344)
Cochino (SS345)
Corporal (SS346)

Cubera (SS347)
Cusk (SS348)
Diodon (SS349)
Dogfish (SS350)
Greenfish (SS351)
Halfbeak (SS352)
Orders for (SS353)
Golet (SS361)
Guavina (SS362)
Guitarro (SS363)
Hammerhead (SS364)
Hardhead (SS365)
Hawksbill (SS366)
Icefish (SS367)
Jallao (SS368)
Kete (SS369)
Kraken (SS370)
Lagarto (SS371)
Lamprey (SS372)
Lizardfish (SS373)
Loggerhead (SS374)
Macabi (SS375)
Mapiro (SS276)
Menhaden (SS377)
Mero (SS378)
Sand Lance (SS381)
Picuda (SS382)
Pampanito (SS383)
Parche (SS384)
Bang (SS385)
Pilotfish (SS386)
Pintado (SS387)
Pipefish (SS388)
Piranha (SS389)
Plaice (SS390)
Pomfret (SS391)
Sterlet (SS392)
Queenfish (SS394)
Razorback (SS394)
Redfish (SS395)
Ronquil (SS396)
Scabbardfish (SS397)
Segundo (SS398)
Sea Cat (SS399)

Sea Devil (SS400)
Sea Dog (SS401)
Sea Fox (SS402)
Atule (SS403)
Spikefish (SS404)
Sea Owl (SS405)
Sea Poacher (SS406)

Sea Robin (SS407)
Sennet (SS408)
Piper (SS409)
Threadfin (SS410)
Spadefish (SS411)
Trepang (SS412)
Spot (SS413)
Springer (SS414)
Stickleback (SS415)
Tiru (SS416)
Tench (SS417)

Thornback (SS418)
Tigrone (SS419)
Tirante (SS420)
Trutta (SS421)
Toro (SS422)
Torsk (SS423)
Quillback (SS424)
Trumpetfish (SS425)
Tusk (SS426)
Corsair (SS435)
Unicorn (SS436)
Walrus (SS437)
Argonaut (SS438)
Runner (SS476)
Conger (SS477)
Cutlass (SS478)
Diablo (SS479)
Medregal (SS480)
Requin (SS481)
Irex (SS482)
Sea Leopard (SS483)
Odax (SS484)
Sirago (SS485)
Pomodon (SS486)
Remora (SS487)
Sarda (SS488)
Spinax (SS489)
Volador (SS490)
Amberjack (SS522)
Grampus (SS523)
Pickerel (SS524)
Grenadier (SS525)

Schau dir einmal ein “typiches” US Uboot an. Let’s look at SS394, this was no rare nor experimental submarine.

http://queenfish.org/noframes/specs.html vergleiche dies mit einem gleichzeitigem Kriegsmarine Uboot. http://www.u-boot-archiv.de/typen/typ_viic41.html

Wieder muss man betonnen das dies einfach eine Tatsache ist das Deutschland, mit einer kleineren industrie Kapatzitaet, weniger Resourcen, Menchen, Ingineure, Techniker einfach nicht mit halten konnte. Der Zweg dieses Vergleiches ist ist nicht von den technichen Rrrungenschaften der Deutschen weg zu nehmen zu demonstriren das Innerhalb der Allieriert Kraefte im WWII die Briten und die USA wie Deutschland zur der Zeit eine westliche christliche Kultur. Diese Laender waren technologiche und industriell grossmaechte mit mehr Potenzial waren. Deutscheland bevor Kriegs begin wurf alles in ihrer Kriegs macschine rein Pumpten. Jedoch wen der Krieg einmal anfing un diese Laender rein kammen wurde der der techniche Vorteil der Wehrmacht sogar relativ schnell zunichte gemacht. Deutschland verlor in diesem wettrennen nicht weil man bloeder war, aber weil man einfach weniger an Potenzial hatte. In jeder hinzicht!

In solch einer Situation kann man sagen das die „Zeit“ gegen einem wirkt. Solch ein Krieg muss schnell fertig sein wo der Feindt nicht mobilizieren kann. Aehnliche Situationen sieht man in N. Korea oder sogar im Kalten Krieg haette der Warschauer pakt angegriffen. Beide hatten oder haben die numericsche ueberlegenheit, beide haben sogar technich sehr vielle gute Systeme jedoch wenn die nicht nicht schnell siegen werden die verlieren. Genau das selbe sah man im Zweitem Weltkrieg.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/weapons_and_manpower.htm (Take a look at the statistics) Do you notice something? Technology was no different! Once the allied nations began to mobilize it was over and done.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept1995/0995edit.asp (A good read that makes my point). Or look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-80_Shooting_Star Even in aviation this was the case. The German typically takes a limited production and experimental plane like the ME 262 and compares this to a P51. Truth is, the German mainstay fighter at wars end was a ME109 and by wars end the P80 was already on its way into the European theater. Compare apples with apples, P80 vs. ME262 and the superiority is gone. Bottom line, whether you like it or not. By wars end the Germans were outdone EVEN in the realm of technology. They enjoyed a superiority at wars begin, not at wars end as you try to state.

As to France and how they were over run. While they had a navy it didn’t help their land forces much and their tank was OK but air force wasn’t. Their doctrine wasn’t sound. Even doctrine is a largely developmental concept and Germany like I had stated earlier had been fine honing its military might for years. Again, look at legion Condor in Spain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condor_Legion

At wars begin; the Germans had the world’s premiere military. Doctrine, equipment, selectivity of troops, experience, training, size, it was all there. The Mauser 98 at wars begin actually a good rifle and the ME109 was the best fighter out there. The Hurricane wasn’t bad, but the ME109 was better. When a nation mobilizes for war its industry and its intellect get put to use in the war machine. The problem with many of these German late technological marvels is that they were “last ditch” efforts in hope of making some difference. Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_163

At wars end, the Germans were grabbing straws. They were placing a lot of hope on “Wunderwaffen” which the propaganda news reels even talked about extensively. Practically Germany wasted a lot of resources with the V-1 and V-2. These systems brought little in the sum of all factors, but they came at an enormous cost; a cost that could have built many more FW190s. One can even make the argument that the ME262 was not truly a wise idea. The point is that Germany was outgunned, outmanned, out manufactured, and yes, even out thought.

(Example real world today)
In 1995, the U.S. federal government employed eight percent of all employed scientists and engineers having at least a bachelor’s degree. This accounted for slightly more than 252,000 scientists and engineers included 53,000 computer scientists and mathematicians, 38,000 life scientists, 28,000 physical scientists, 17,000 social and behavioral scientists, and 117,000 engineers. They work in every department and agency, although most are in NASA, EPA, and the Departments of Defense, Agriculture, Interior, Health and Human Services, Commerce, Transportation, Veterans Affairs, and Energy. 8% is 252,000 engineers and scientists! The US has a peacetime economy despite all the military activity going on. Imagine if we began to truly throw all resources into our war machine. In WWII the US spent nearly 90% of its government budget for war. Nearly 22% of our entire national economy was poured into the war machine. Today we pour about 3.5% or so of our GDP into defense. Germany at wars begin had a “head start” in the arms race and weaponization of certain technology but Germany had a SMALLER industrial base, LESS engineers, A smaller aviation industry and a smaller maritime industry before wars begin and Hitler’s mobilization. Fact is, Curtis was the larges airplane builder their was in the 1920s. First motor powered flight? The Wright Brothers in North Carolina. First Trans Atlantic, first around the world……..

Read about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnstorming

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/earlyU.S/Aero1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Air_Races

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Goddard_(scientist) (Many of Werner von Braun’s works were based on this man and that is a documented fact!)

http://www.postalmuseum.si.edu/exhibits/2c2_airmailinamerica.html (The US is huge and already in the 1920’s the airplane was used for mail!)

http://www.boeing.com/history/boeing (Boeing by the way was there from the beginning. It’s one of the first plane manufacturers).

In fact, a lot of the German war machine was in part based on US innovation in this sector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_132 Those motors in those Junkers were based on Pratt and Whitney designs. The whole concept of the Sturtz Kampf Bomber was actually American, believe it or not.

This is not difficult to understand. Germany was weaponizing technology while the US was still trying to build passenger airplanes and mail transporters. Germany was building pocket battleships, pouring enormous amounts of resources into developing war machines while in the US we were not. This gave Germany an significant advantage at wars begin.

Weaponization of technology: http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/lab/4515/wedell.htm Look at a Wendell racers from the 1930’s; now look at a Corsair from WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F4U_Corsair The F4 in WWII was based on planes that were used for air races pre WWII.

The “bomb” is something you can’t deny, but the truth is, by wars end, even the planes, ships, subs, bombers, radar, computers………….was all outperforming what the Axis had – like it or not. Even down to the equipment of the infantryman, by wars end the Germans were simply outdone. That’s not to say that the Germans had no “experimental” or some good things, but they were slipping further and further behind in the race both in industrial output and technology. Germany could not keep up in this race.

[Atlantic Bridge]

My last try to put it on a more constructive platform:

In my world Germany would never have closed its nuclear power plants and played games the way they did years ago. Even then while I was still in Germany I loudly stated that this was a moronic idea. Germany would be more energy independent, would still be number one in the civilian commercial nuclear power industry.

Agreed.

In my world Germany would not be militarily weak. Germany would be an active and large scale player on the international stage. Even issues like East Timor Germany would have played a much more significant role in than they did. The “schmarotzer” status of today would not be there.

Not agreed. It is not in the German national interest to be involved into the big conflicts of this world. We are to small (even if we spend more on millitary) to move basic things. If your millitary with its big resources comes to its limits in such nations like Irak or with such clowns like OBL than our forces are simply overstrained. Maybe we are freeloaders in your point of view, but we have to make the policy that is going to make up for our interests - not for yours. Besides - if something happens in east Timor - so what? Far away from Germany. Maybe they kidnap some of our technicians. Then we will buy them out. You will agree that this is much cheaper than to sacrifice a few hundred soldiers and bazillons of material in a meaningless country. I thought that you are a Master of Business Administration. It is a question of efficiency. Too much emotions are contraproductive. You should have learned that.

In my world the VAT would have NEVER EVER have risen above 14% and in fact I years ago when things were still “ok” was making the case that this policy was economically non-viable. Taxes need to DROP, state ownership needs to DROP, and subsidies need to FALL AWAY. Things like the Pflegeversicherung would have never come, there would be no GEZ and there would be no “Hundesteuer”. What kind of gay BS is that! Tax some kids dog! That’s ridiculous. I am a capitalist who yet understands a need for some social services. The “ordentliche sozial politik” is Germany’s own created economic nightmare.

Agreed to the fullest.

Germany took a left turn in the late 60s and after the “Wende” it only got worse. Germany’s root problem is systemic and culturally based. People are accountable for their actions and things like Schroeder gas deals (While he shook the finger at the Bush oil Cowboy) would be unacceptable. This man belongs in front of a court for “Landesverrat”.

Agreed. My own individual problem is, that most of my compatriots see this different. They LOVE their socialism even if it makes them bankrupt in the long term. Even Merkel seems to be a socialist. BUT - Since I believe in democracy I have to accept the political will of the majority. Vox populi vox rindvieh. A difficult situation.

The US German relations and even largely your demise are related to your own self flagellating, anti God, anti-family, socialist social undertones and movements. We have them in the US too. Just they are less. The George Soros in the US are less prominent and abundant as in Germany. When people take their families to go see the local “love parade” floats, should we really be surprised that they are no longer having children? Seriously!? How “sozial” is it when you take 200 Euro from a families pocket, give them 100 back and call that Kindergeld? This is a “joke”!

Well to tell you the truth - we all know that America is a democracy that has to deal with exactly the same problems like we have. Your conservative "Wende" under GWB could be in emminent danger, if a new democratic president will be elected (no matter if it will be Hillary or not). The political power of the conservative movement in the US would be broken. Not totally but at large parts. I.e. What will be with Iraq then? You predicted that the new President is going to hold the position. Are you really sure? We will see. The US public could be be tired of having thousands of their sons and daughters coming home in coffins. Besides - you are right - the "Kindergeld" and all other "gelder" are a joke. If someone is hungry he first needs some bread to survive and then work to earn his own bread. That is very simple and not understood in Europe. All public help must be a transfer into a own existance. Not more and not less.

These are the people today defining Germany. Germany has been taken over. It has been hijacked by whacko’s. Continue your trend and you “will” fade away into obscurity, regardless of what you think of me. You are at a point where mediocrity has become acceptable. Rio Reiser hat es nicht besser sagen können. Wenn ich nur Koening von Deutschland wäre. Ich würde ein Par Kleinichkeiten ändern.

Funny to me that espechially you quote Rio Reiser, one of the most notorious leftist singers in Germany. He was a close buddy of Claudia Roth, my favourite most ugly green whining matron. Even the promiscuous Joschka Fischer probably is suffering a typical "male problem" if he sees her:

Even the US-invention (BuHuHaHa - I do not doubt the US-winning margin in the development of medicaments to achieve a erection - no German "Stolz" here) Viagra might be ineffective with such massive visual "shock and awe".

[Atlantic Bridge]

Postscriptum:

Ich schrieb: Du kannst ruhig sagen was Du denkst. Ich (und die meisten meiner Landsleute hier) nehme Dir eh nicht ab, daß Du gute Absichten in Dir trägst.

Im Nachgang hätte es mich doch brennend interessiert, was Deine tatsächlichen Absichen und Beweggründe sind. Haßt Du mein Land aufgrund Deiner eigenen Erfahrungen hier oder nur weil wir Deutschen in Deinen Augen schlechte Allierte sind? Haßt Du Deutschland weil den meisten Deutschen ihr "rotten system" offensichtlich bestens gefällt? Oder meinst Du, Du könntest mich und andere durch Beschimpfungen zu Deiner Sicht der Dinge missionieren??? Da ich einem Deiner Postings entnommen habe (irgendwo hattest Du das mal geschrieben), daß Dein Vater zumindest Ziel eines RAF-Anschlages wurde, vermute ich einen Teil Deiner Abneigung gegen uns Deutsche hier.

Ich glaube zwar immer noch nicht, daß Du gute Absichten uns Deutschen gegenüber in Dir trägst, bin aber für interessante Überraschungen immer offen.

[Red6]

Again, nothing but polemics.

Let me ask you: "When did you stop beating your wife?"

- You ask nothing but loaded and leading questions. Get a life and wake up.

[Atlantic Bridge]

No answer is also a answer... Just what I thought.

[Red6]

You don't ask questions, you're asking leading and loaded questions which no matter how answered give a predetermined outcome.

You're right, no answer is also an answer. You obviously still beat your wife.

[Billthedrill]

COOL DOWN, ALL THREE OF YOU!

LOL! Bless you, Michael, you're starting to sound like an old-time FReeper now... ;-)

I think it's a little over-the-top to move from comparing the performance of the various allied fighters to thinking that they're actually going to be shooting at one another. These things work out in some interesting ways. For one thing, the P-51 Mustang wasn't much of a performer until the Brits dropped a Rolls-Royce engine into it. You never know.

Anyway, Huey Chavez is going to have to purchase fighters somewhere after we smoke his Sukhois...

[Atlantic Bridge]

You don't ask questions, you're asking leading and loaded questions which no matter how answered give a predetermined outcome.

Njet. Intention matters. It was a real question.

[norton]

I like the Brit version too,
but it's named after the P-38.

(I'm sure a dozen or so have beaten me to this reply - so consider this a reminder)

[norton]

"Can't have a thread about Lightning without a mention of Richard Bong's "Marge"!

Then let me add that you can't a thread about the lightning without mention of Tony Levere (sp?) who did a stunning air show performance long after most of us would be piloting a recliner and TV remote.