Greece: Israel using "excessive, pointless" force

In other news, nobody cares what Greece thinks.

:'D

Kale 'emera, or something like that.

Hey, Greeks:

Palestinians = Muslims

Muslims = Turks

Turks = Hagia Sophia turned into a MUSEUM.

GOT IT?????

Colin powel's incompetence in pushing the Coffi Annan Plan on cyprus is an added insult that has hurt our reputation in the region.

No, the UN plan was rejected by Greeks living on Cyprus. They don't want a brokered plan, they want all Turks off the island and union with Greece. That vote embarrassed the government of Greece.

Greece has the largest military in the region and hands down the largest navy.

Turkey's army (600,000 men) is the second largest in Europe, after Russia's. Greece's army wasn't enough to hold on to territory seized in the 1920s when Greece invaded Turkey.

The USA depends on Greece as a stabalizing buffer force for the balkans.

Oh, that explains all the stability in the Balkans. The Greek gov't insisted that Macedonia could only be recognized as "The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". That's a brilliant contribution by a nation renowned for its diplomatic abilities.

You also forget Cyprus is a BRITISH created problem.

No, Archbishop Makarios illegally removed 13 articles from the constitution of the Republic of Cyprus, turned a blind eye to Greek atrocities against Turkish Cypriotes, and threatened even more, all the while pushing for union with Greece (a position he took at least as early as 1948). The world did nothing about it. Turkish patience ran out in 1974.

Nothing of what you said has anything to do with the comment I made. I'm not saying all Greeks are like that. But I've known alot of them in my life and heard some pretty bad talk about Jews from them. I've also heard one Greek say that America deserved the 9-11 attacks. Again, I'm sure not all Greeks are like that, but from what I've met of them, they aren't particularly fond of Jews.

"It is vital, to stop the (situation) worsening, Hizbullah must immediately release the soldiers taken hostage,"

TRANSLATION: Hammas, you are getting you posterior kicked return the hostages and end this stupidity.

"....calls on the government of Israel to avoid the use of excessive and pointless force which cannot provide a solution to the problem."

TRANSLATION: Israel, make sure you shots are accurate if you are going to use overwhelming force. Hammas, you are out gunned and have no hope of comming out of this alive.

So, your opinion is that the Greek government only wants Hamas to stop because Israel is kicking their butts? What about the fact that Hamas (and Hezbollah) went over the Israeli border and kidnapped Israeli soldiers - and that such actions constitute a serious provocation at best, and an act of war at worst? What about the fact that the Israelis have bent over backwards to give the Palies autonomy over all of Gaza and substantial portions of Judea & Samaria, and the Palies have responded by electing Hamas to govern them, and Hamas itself has kidnapped a soldier, killed others and is rocketing Israel itself? What if Turkey were doing this to Greece - wouldn't Greece be on the warpath, and rightfully expect the rest of the world to see the justice in its defensive response?

Please stop apologizing for the Greek government. Here it is simply wrong. It doesn't mean that it is wrong all the time, or even full of evil people...it just means that it is wrong HERE AND NOW.

You are wrong about cyprus.

The plan was rejected by the Cyriots because the plan was foisted upon them after they left negotiations. Powel was trying to push the BS non-compromise plan as his swan song and Annan wanted it to show up GWBush in contrast to Iraq.

The humiliation was solidly the UN's in fact an author wrote a book cally the cypus failure a TEXT book example of the incompetence of the UN. Posted here on FR.

The Republic of Cyprus wants to be one nation as it was before. Newsflash Cypriots consider themselves more british than Greek. As for the attrocities, those turkish attrocities have been documented enough and are more better left to the other threads on the subjects.

As for macedonia. The Former yougoslave republic was named by Marshal Tito as a land grab. Macedonia is a provence in Greece. I have actuall been there and seen Pella, the palace of Alexander and the tomb of King Philip where Alexander the Great's wife and son are burried. I have seen the ancient writings of the Alexander periord. All Greek.

Focus,

The issue here is what does this statement mean in the diplomatic circles.

I think the message is clear. "WAKE UP!Israel is going to use overwhelming force and the hostage takers AND THEIR ALIES better return the soldiers or the overwhelming force is going to wipe them off the face of the earth."

I don't think this is too different from what the USA has said today.

Track this with what the USA just said.

No appologizing just dealing with reality.

You have a weak arab governements being lead by wacko groups.

No matter what you or I think, this is going to get very very very bloody.

Word association:

Greeks
anti-Jewish
pro-Arab
socialist
anti-American
losers

Even many Jews have short memories or are ignorant of their own history. The history of Greece is interwoven with the Jews since pre-Christian era: For example, Rhodes and Thessaloniki (Salonika) would never have become western cultural havens without their substantial Jewish populations before WWII. Further, a disproportionately high number of Greek Army generals and officers were Jewish and it was the Greek army that was among the bravest when fighting the Nazis.

You are wrong about cyprus.

The Republic of Cyprus wants to be one nation as it was before.

Since the "Republic of Cyprus" is the Greek portion of the island, and the Greek Cypriotes want exactly the same thing they wanted in 1960 when the Republic of Cyprus' constitution was dismembered by Makarios, "one nation as it was before" still means ethnic cleansing by the Greek majority.

As for the attrocities, those turkish attrocities have been documented enough and are more better [sic] left to the other threads on the subjects.

I wasn't talking about Turkish atrocities, I was talking about the Greek atrocities on Turkish Cypriotes, the very acts which led inexorably to the Turkish intervention and the partition of the island. The Greek Cypriotes rejected the brokered plan by vote. That's the end of dreams of reunification of the island. The Turks on Cyprus don't want to live under Greek rule, remembering what it meant during the days of Makarios' rule, and the guarantees that the Greek delegation didn't want and the Greek Cypriotes rejected were intended to avoid that.

As for macedonia. The Former yougoslave republic was named by Marshal Tito as a land grab.

The nation of Macedonia was indeed formerly part of Yugoslavia, but was named that because the population was largely Macedonian.

The issue here is what does this statement mean in the diplomatic circles... I don't think this is too different from what the USA has said today.

The US response was just semantic.

"At the same time, Greece calls on the government of Israel to avoid the use of excessive and pointless force which cannot provide a solution to the problem." Greece has traditionally close ties with Arab countries but has also recently improved relations with Israel.

That is not the same thing, although it is an improvement over the condemning statements of the Arab nations who sponsor the terrorism in the first place. When it gets to shove, Greece will, at best, wash its hands.

Even many Jews have short memories or are ignorant of their own history. The history of Greece is interwoven with the Jews since pre-Christian era...

...such as the massacre of the Jewish population of Alexandria for their crime of wanting to become citizens of that Greek colony, or the desecration of Jewish temples.

Track this with what the USA just said.

I can't say that I'm terribly thrilled with the moral relativism and the lack of defense of an ally by the Dept. of Surrender, err, State. This is typical for them.

No matter what you or I think, this is going to get very very very bloody.

I think you're right. Israel HAS to clean out the Hezbollah rockets from South Lebanon, and Iran-funded Hezbollah isn't going to sit there without firing off a lot of them. Israel may end up finding (and/or be on the receiving end of) some of Saddam's "non-existant" chemical WMDs. I pray that they only find them, but with the savagery already displayed by various Arabs over the years, I'm not terribly optimistic.

BTW, Iran is clearly behind all of this, IMHO to try to distract the rest of the world from its nuke program with a full-blown Mideast War. Syria may also get involved.

They obviously forgot to consult with the oracle at Delphi before issuing their idiotic opinion.

There is only one solution to the Arab Terrorist problem... every last one of them must be killed... pure and simple.

The classics are always the best.

Ancesthntr, you and many others it seems from this thread, obviously have no clue as to what the hell your are talking about. As for your supposed "historical" knowledge I question even that, especially when you are comparing Greeks "not liking" Jews since ancient times because of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. If you really knew history, the battles between Antiochus and the Maccabees had nothing to do with Greeks "not liking" Jews and more to do with the political turmoil that was rocking the region back then. If you did know history, you would also have known that Antiochus ALSO attacked fellow Greeks such as the Ptolemy Dynasty. Hate to break it to you but it was more ambition that had Antiochus going at war and nothing to do with any "supposed" Greek dislike of Jews. Also if you really knew history you would have known that it was a GREEK, Ptolemy Philadelphus II ([285–247 BC]), that had the Toran translated into Greek for the Hellenistic Jews who did not speak Hebrew to be able to read and understand Jewish history and he wanted to make the books part of the Library of Alexandria's collection. Ptolemy wrote to the chief priest, Eleazar, in Jerusalem, and arranged for six translators from each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The translators arrived in Alexandria to Ptolemy's gracious hospitality, and translated the Torah (or Pentateuch as its known in Greek: the first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures). It was thanks to Ptolemy Philadelphus II who helped in spreading the Torah to Hellenic Jews that did not speak any Hebrew with this translation.

And finally if you really did have historical knowledge, you would have known that Jews in Greece go back to nearly 2000 years and that Jewish culture in Greece did not deminish until the Germans, Bulgars and Italians occupied Greece during WWII and basically shipped most of them out to be killed. Why don't you look up as to who the Romaniotes were and while your at it also do some research work on WHICH Western Leader stood up to Hilter before any of your supposed "friendly" Jewish nations, yes including the USA, ever did? Here I'll give you a hint: Archbishop Damaskinos.

The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation:Archbishop Damaskinos

Archbishop Damaskinos

"Greek religious leaders are not shot, they are hanged. I request that you respect this custom." ~ Archbishop Damaskinos

"The appeal of the Archbishop and his fellow Greeks is unique; there is no similar document of protest of the Nazis during World War II that has come to light in any other European country." ~ The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation

Bishop Chrysostomos

"Bishop Chrysostomos refused to submit to the Germans a list of Zakynthos Jews. He initiated the evacuation of the Jews to the hills, and all Jews were saved. Bishop Chrysostomos was honored by Yad Vashem in 1978 as a "Righteous Among the Nations" for his rescue operation." ~ The Simon Wiesenthal Center

Both Bishops and hundreds of other Greeks have been honored by Yad Vashem for their courage in help save many Jewish lives during WWII.

"Greek Jews had never encountered anything remotely as sinister as north European anti-Semitism. The twentieth century had witnessed the rise of anti-Jewish sentiment among Greeks... but it attracted an insignificant minority" ~Misha Glenny: The Balkans: nationalism, war and the great powers 1804-1999, New York: Viking Penguin

"Many Greeks helped Jews. Greek leaders protested deportations, the Greek Orthodox Church called upon its members to protect Jews and the Greek underground hid Jews and smuggled them to unoccupied Greece or to Turkey. Thousands of Jews were saved." ~ The Simon Wiesenthal Center

My advise to people: THINK and do your historical RESEARCH very well, before you open up your mouth and sound like an idiot when you are totally disproven by others who do have the historical background to make you look ingorant.

"Since the "Republic of Cyprus" is the Greek portion of the island, and the Greek Cypriotes want exactly the same thing they wanted in 1960 when the Republic of Cyprus' constitution was dismembered by Makarios, "one nation as it was before" still means ethnic cleansing by the Greek majority.

You want to talk about ethnic cleansing? How about the fact that there no more then a few thousand Greeks left in Anatolia aka modern Turkey, a region which had Greek culture for thousands of years, while hundreds of thousands of them live currently in Greece?

"I wasn't talking about Turkish atrocities, I was talking about the Greek atrocities on Turkish Cypriotes, the very acts which led inexorably to the Turkish intervention and the partition of the island. The Greek Cypriotes rejected the brokered plan by vote. That's the end of dreams of reunification of the island. The Turks on Cyprus don't want to live under Greek rule, remembering what it meant during the days of Makarios' rule, and the guarantees that the Greek delegation didn't want and the Greek Cypriotes rejected were intended to avoid that.

You really believe that Turkish intervention was due to the suppose "autrocities" of Greeks against the 18% of Turks who lived on the island at that time? I would advice you to get your facts straight since you obviously are not familiar with them. If you like I can recommend a very detailed and thorough account of WHY the invasion by Turkish troops happened by a high ranking British military man who was there when these events took place. Autrocities did happen by both parties but it wasn't THAT which led to Turkish intervention, even if Turkey is trying to sell that piece of garbage of an excuse.

"As for macedonia. The Former yougoslave republic was named by Marshal Tito as a land grab. The nation of Macedonia was indeed formerly part of Yugoslavia, but was named that because the population was largely Macedonian."

Are you serious? It was given that named BECAUSE of Tito's ambition to conquered Greek territory, nothing to do with anything else, they couldn't even figure out if they were "Macedonians" or "Bulgarians" prior to Tito. Do you know WHY no legit Christian organization does not recognize the "Macedonian Church"?

"When it gets to shove, Greece will, at best, wash its hands."

That's how much you think you know about Greece or Greeks in general. This coming from International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation:

"When all official appeals to stop the deportations failed, Archbishop Damaskinos spearheaded a direct appeal to the Germans, in the form of a letter composed by the famous Greek poet Angelos Sikelianos and signed by prominent Greek citizens, in a bold attempt to appeal to the hearts and minds of the occupying authorities, in defense of the Jews who were being persecuted. The letter incited the rage of the Nazi general Stroop, who threatened the Archbishop with death by a firing squad. Damaskinos' response was, "Greek religious leaders are not shot, they are hanged. I request that you respect this custom." The simple courage of the religious leader's reply caught the Nazi commander off guard, and his life was spared. The appeal of the Archbishop and his fellow Greeks is unique; there is no similar document of protest of the Nazis during World War II that has come to light in any other European country. It reads, in part: "The Greek Orthodox Church and the Academic World of Greek People Protest against the Persecution... The Greek people were... deeply grieved to learn that the German Occupation Authorities have already started to put into effect a program of gradual deportation of the Greek Jewish community... and that the first groups of deportees are already on their way to Poland..." "According to the terms of the armistice, all Greek citizens, without distinction of race or religion, were to be treated equally by the Occupation Authorities. The Greek Jews have proven themselves... valuable contributors to the economic growth of the country [and] law-abiding citizens who fully understand their duties as Greeks. They have made sacrifices for the Greek country, and were always on the front lines of the struggle of the Greek nation to defend its inalienable historical rights..." "In our national consciousness, all the children of Mother Greece are an inseparable unity: they are equal members of the national body irrespective of religion... Our holy religion does not recognize superior or inferior qualities based on race or religion, as it is stated: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek' and thus condemns any attempt to discriminate or create racial or religious differences. Our common fate both in days of glory and in periods of national misfortune forged inseparable bonds between all Greek citizens, without exemption, irrespective of race..." "Today we are... deeply concerned with the fate of 60,000 of our fellow citizens who are Jews... we have lived together in both slavery and freedom, and we have come to appreciate their feelings, their brotherly attitude, their economic activity, and most important, their indefectible patriotism..."

http://www.raoulwallenberg.net/?en/news/2953/2992.htm

No, it isn't all Jews who are ignorant of their own history. Its the ignorant individuals, most who are not even Jewish, who have no clue not only of Jewish but Greek history it seems. The children of Greek-Jews who escaped Greece know very well how interwoven Hellenic and Jewish relationships really are.

"The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us." ~The first boat to arrive with aid to the victims of the 1953 earthquake which hit Greece was from Israel, with the message read above

"such as the massacre of the Jewish population of Alexandria for their crime of wanting to become citizens of that Greek colony, or the desecration of Jewish temples"

You have your history mixed up again I see. First off under Greek rule, according to Philos, the Jews of Alexandria enjoyed the same civil rights as Alexandrian citizens and quote: "not those of the Egyptians" ("In Flaccum," § 10; ed. Mangey, ii. 528). Oh and Josephus ("Contra Ap." ii. 4; B. J." ii. 18, § 7) says the same thing:

"Alexander permitted them the same rights as the Greeks. This privilege they preserved under the successors of Alexander, who permitted them to call themselves Macedonians. Nay, when the Romans took possession of Egypt neither the first Caesar nor his successors suffered the rights, which had been bestowed upon the Jews by Alexander, to be diminished."

You can find the civil rights of the Jews in Alexandria which Josephus talks about engraved upon a tablet of brass still existed today. The persecutions of the Jews of Alexandria which you are talking about occurred during ROMAN reign, such as that of Nero, Vespasian, Caligula, Flaccus, governor of Alexandria in which he issued an edict in which he called the Jews "aliens and residents". So I have no clue what the hell your talking about "wanting to become citizens of that Greek colony" since they were citizens from the time of its creations.

"The use of unnecessary force in the apprehension of the Hezbollah...has been approved."