[Dark Skies]

Again, your comment is interesting and oblique to my way of thinking...which isn't a bad thing.

You said...

The observable fact is that for the vast majority of muslims Jihad is not in the daily lives.

Of course, that is hard to disagree with except that the question arises as to how "observable" will the support for jihad be.

I certainly think we are picking nits and fine nits they are...but I repeat, where is the line to be drawn in the muslim mind. How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

As a Christian, I do not doubt that our G-d loves muslims. Yet, as a human, I have serious doubts that the islamic allah and his followers love me and my people.

My Christian and Jewish ancestors are still pigs and monkeys in Saudi Arabia (obviously they know my Uncle Dave and Aunt Rachel)...so, obviously, the onus is not on the west.

The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.

[Valin]

Yet, as a human, I have serious doubts that the islamic allah and his followers love me and my people.

I've known and worked with Muslims, some a great folks some...well let's just say they live in an alternative universe and leave it at that.

"Anyone who judges a man by the group is a peawit".
Sgt. Kilrain says Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels




My Christian and Jewish ancestors are still pigs and monkeys in Saudi Arabia


"Wahhabism is about as central to Islam as, shall we say, the Ku Klux Klan to Christianity. It originated in Najd, what is now part of Saudi Arabia, in the 18th century. It was a reaction to the general perception of that time that things were going wrong."
Dr Benard Lewis

[Tolik]

Thank you for the interesting discussion. There is not much disagreement here. But just for fun, let's have one more splitting hair round.

...How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

...The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.

The onus is indeed on Islam. It is their internal matter that was exported to become the world's problem. But unless we end up wiping them out, the solution is still theirs.

We can help by killing out the Jihadists and by clearly stating our expectations. Frankly, I don't care about "brotherly and merciful", but non-aggressive externally and non-discriminatory internally are the must. From our side no multicultural tolerance to their intolerance. No looking away from their hate speech. No appeasement! Remove all Wahhabi and Wahhabi financed organization from the West. No excuses and lowering expectations. No accepting the whining that its somebody else fault. For ourselves: forget about quick fixes, but be ready for extended, multigenerational effort to confront their aggression and intolerance. When they see a strong horse and no paper tiger does not matter who is in office, they will abandon Jihadist ways

 

...How can moderate muslims demonstrate to those of us who fear them that they seek a world in which they are tolerant and tolerated. How can we non-muslims know they are (toward us) as they ask us to be toward them...tolerant, forgiving, merciful...brotherly.

...The west doesn't harbor the religion of hate knowingly. It has snuck in unawares. The onus is on islam.