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British Scientists Blast Vatican on Stem Cell Research Excommunication
Life News ^ | July 7, 2006 | Steven Ertelt

Posted on 07/08/2006 6:52:03 AM PDT by NYer

London, England (LifeNews.com) -- British researchers are upset that the Catholic Church has decided it will excommunicate scientists who are involved in embryonic stem cell research. The Vatican says the research, which relies on the destruction of human life to obtain stem cells, is just as bad as abortion.

Last week, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, head of the Pontifical Council for the Family, told an official Vatican magazine that embryonic stem cell research was "the same as abortion."

"Destroying human embryos is equivalent to an abortion. It is the same thing," he said.

"Excommunication will be applied to the women, doctors and researchers who eliminate embryos [and to the] politicians that approve the law," the cardinal said in an interview.

However, British scientists are calling this "religious persecution."

Dr. Stephen Minger, leading stem cell expert at Kings College, told the BBC, "Having been raised a Catholic I found this stance really outrageous."

"Are they going to excommunicate IVF doctors, nurses and embryologists who routinely put millions of embryos down the sink every year throughout the world?" he asked.

Professor Allan Templeton, president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, told the BBC that the cardinal's comments were "insensitive and unhelpful."

Meanwhile, Professor Julian Savulescu, Uehiro Chair in practical ethics at the University of Oxford, blasted the Catholic church saying the excommunication views amount "to religious persecution of scientists which has no place in modern liberal societies."

An Italian cloning scientist wants to be the first excommunicated from the Catholic Church.

Professor Cesare Galli of the Laboratory of Reproductive Technologies in Cremona, the first scientist to clone a horse, said last week that the position makes the Catholic church like the Talbian in Afghanistan.

"I can bear excommunication. I was raised as a Catholic, I share Catholic values, but I am able to make my own judgment on some issues and I do not need to be told by the church what to do or to think," Galli told the London Telegraph newspaper.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: adultstemcells; excommunication; italy; ivf; science; scientists; stemcell; stemcells; vatican
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To: trebb
Sounds like you had a rogue priest. Never heard of excommunication from a Catholic Church for non-payment of tithes. Some folks just decide to speak out because they can, not because they should or have the authority to do so. I'd have been hurt, too, but sounds like you are where you are well off now. As long as you are getting to know our Lord, all will be well with your soul.

I am only glad I don't have to make the choice of who will live and who will die (in a petri dish or otherwise) and who will be saved and who will not be saved. I'm also glad I don't have to kill in order to save. I just don't have the heart for that, and I couldn't take it.
21 posted on 07/08/2006 7:39:21 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Dog Gone
I've never quite grasped the excommunication concept. God is the judge, not humans. The Catholic Church is certainly entitled to expel members, but to give it more cosmic consequences than that seems to be usurping authority that is not their's.

Look at it this way: If you as Attorney General say that you are opposed to illegal immigration, but at the same time publicly state that you will not prosecute anyone who is caught illegally crossing the border, "because I'll let God be the judge, not me", then I would have reason to seriously question whether you are really opposed to illegal immigration or not.

If the Catholic Church doesn't do anything about members who are publicly flouting her teaching, wouldn't you wonder whether she really believes in those teachings? Besides, it would be offensive to God to give His grace to someone in a state of mortal sin.

22 posted on 07/08/2006 7:39:29 AM PDT by guinnessman
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To: TheGeezer

You read more into that than I do, but I'm not trying to argue or persuade anyone. I'm not Catholic, but I certainly support their right to believe anything they choose. If the Church wants to sell Indulgences, more power to it. If it wants to invoke the dreaded Excommunication, okay with me.

I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me. It obviously makes sense to Catholics and that's all that really matters.

I regret weighing in on this thread. My post was a lightning rod and I didn't intend it to be.


23 posted on 07/08/2006 7:44:14 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: NYer
"Having been raised a Catholic I found this stance really outrageous."

They were "raised Catholic" but none admit to being a dreaded "practicing Catholic". They have excommunicated themselves. The secularists will greet them with open arms.

My view?

Excommunicate them and every pro abortion politician with them.

24 posted on 07/08/2006 7:48:26 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: NYer

Religious persecution? Telling the Church what she should believe or not believe on moral issues is the real religious persecution around here.


25 posted on 07/08/2006 7:48:35 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Dog Gone
The Catholic Church is certainly entitled to expel members, but to give it more cosmic consequences than that seems to be usurping authority that is not their's.

Huh?

26 posted on 07/08/2006 7:49:27 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: trebb
When I was about 12, we got a letter from the Priest of the Catholic Church we attended... We got another letter saying that since we were not willing to support the church properly, we were being excommunicated from that Parish and should not attend any more services there.

Trebb, religion isn't a perversion of what Christ wanted. You said yourself that you found Christ in a non-denominational Church--- as I read you, that means you found Christ through religion.

There are always bad apples. The priest you refer to had no power whatsoever to excommunicate you. He was not acting in obedience to tradition, but out of his own willfulness:

From New Advent:

Excommunication is an act of ecclesiastical jurisdiction, the rules of which it follows. Hence the general principle: whoever has jurisdiction in the forum externum, properly so called, can excommunicate, but only his own subjects. Therefore, whether excommunications be a jure (by the law) or ab homine (under form of sentence or precept), they may come from the pope alone or a general council for the entire Church; from the provincial council for an ecclesiastical province; from the bishop for his diocese; from the prelate nullius for quasi-diocesan territories; and from regular prelates for religious orders. Moreover, anyone can excommunicate who, by virtue of his office, even when delegated, has contentious jurisdiction in the forum externum; for instance, papal legates, vicars capitular, and vicars-general. But a parish priest cannot inflict this penalty nor even declare that it is incurred, i. e. he cannot do so in an official and judicial manner.

27 posted on 07/08/2006 7:50:24 AM PDT by mjolnir ("All great change in America begins at the dinner table.")
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To: Dog Gone
"I've never quite grasped the excommunication concept. God is the judge, not humans."

In the smaller sense, the Church is certainly entitled to decide who may be members thereof.

In the larger sense, Christ (i.e. God) specifically allocated that authority to the pope and bishops of the Catholic church:

"And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19

28 posted on 07/08/2006 7:51:09 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: NYer

Unbelievable that they're complaining about getting excommunicated. Why haven't they just quit the Catholic Church? So silly of them to pretend to be Christian when they so cavalierly destroy human life. And damn straight that the doctors and others who flush embryos down the drain at IVF clinics also ought not to be allowed to pretend to be Christians!


29 posted on 07/08/2006 7:53:53 AM PDT by guitarist
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To: jwalsh07

Perhaps I have a misunderstanding of what excommunication is.

It's my perception that it's a declaration that a person can no longer participate in the Sacraments and is thus headed to hell.

If it's just an expulsion from the church, then that's a very different matter. I'm assuming it involves a judgment of more cosmic consequences than mere membership at a parish.


30 posted on 07/08/2006 7:54:09 AM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Dog Gone
"It's my perception that it's a declaration that a person can no longer participate in the Sacraments and is thus headed to hell."

Correct. But you have to remember that it's the individuals choice, not the Church's. The Church is only acknowledging the individual's choice.

And as another poster pointed out, it is reversible at any time. Repent, confess, and be welcomed back. Of course, one also has to stop the sinful activity that caused the excommunication in the first place.

"If it's just an expulsion from the church, then that's a very different matter. I'm assuming it involves a judgment of more cosmic consequences than mere membership at a parish."

Its both.

31 posted on 07/08/2006 7:59:10 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Dog Gone
You misunderstand the concept. Excommunication is neither a one way ticket to hell nor a permanent state. First of all it is the individual who excommunicates himself by refusing to abide by the dogma of the church. The dogma in this case is that human life from conceptus on is sacred. Killing it absent due process, exigent circumstance or just war is a grave sin in Catholicism.

It is a graver sin for those in positions of influence.

All Catholics know that. So when they do those things, the have excommunicated themselves for to recieve the host in the Church one must be free of those grave sins.

The Church simply ackowledges their failing publically in an effort to get them right with the Lord once again. A heartfelt talk with God and a regret for those sins once again puts you at the altar rather than in on the ferry across the River Styx.

32 posted on 07/08/2006 8:02:23 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Dog Gone
Thank you for your response.

I don't mean anything by this, I just want to clarify the term Indulgence for you.

Indulgence: definition and conditions

As you can see, you can't receive an indulgence unless you are in a state of grace. In other words, you have to first be forgiven of all mortal and venial sins.

33 posted on 07/08/2006 8:02:41 AM PDT by guinnessman
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To: Dog Gone
If the Church wants to sell Indulgences, more power to it.

Well, actually, that was a serious and immoral problem, and no one should wish "more power to it."

From Catholic Answers:

One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal around indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms-indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "[I]t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, alms-giving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

In 1657 the pope formally forbade connecting exchange of money with indulgences, and the Council Of Trent issued severe condemnations of the practice of granting indulgences with alms-giving.

If one misunderstands the nature of indulgences, or the theological basis of indulgences which dates back to the very early church, www.catholic.com will help with gaining an understanding.

As for being a lightning rod, I can understand the discomfort. I am on an evolution ping list!

34 posted on 07/08/2006 8:04:28 AM PDT by TheGeezer (I.will.never.vote.for.John.McCain.)
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To: trebb

You don't even believe what you just wrote.
You need to ask the Lord for forgiveness right now.

Strange... i've been to too many parishes to count and I have never seen or heard such... and excommunication for not tithing... give me a break.

As I am sure... even though you attend a non-denominational Church, you have a bible ... check out Barnabas in chapter 4 of Acts (what he gaveand why) and what it says about Ananais and Sapphira later. (That's if Peter is still in your bible... btw, most bibles were made by men too and books put together by the Catholic Church... later other founders of Christianity took out what didn't fit into their particular teachings).

The bottom line is... it's about generousity and covetousness... maybe you need to go back to your parents and get the real story.

Praying for you, pray for me.


35 posted on 07/08/2006 8:04:50 AM PDT by AliVeritas ("One for all , all for kicking *ss and taking names" ...Scratch taking names.)
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To: Dog Gone
BTW, in a misspent youth and at a time when I was angry with God, I excommunicated myself. I grew older, the anger was replaced with a bit of wisdom, I confessed my sins and returned to the altar.

And I never whined once! :-}

36 posted on 07/08/2006 8:04:52 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Dog Gone

I'm glad you did weigh in. It is a good thing to discuss and clarify. Non-Catholics and non-Christians would do well to understand what the true position of the Body of Christ believes. It's a good thing.

Look, everybody is trying to do something good, I presume, in life. A lot of folks think they can help God out with what they've learned. Just like Sarah and Abraham thought they could "help" God out with His plan for their child. Maybe, just maybe, when a person thinks they're helping, they are making things worse. There is a cosmic perspective to these issues. There is a reaction for every action. Look at the nature of God from the beginning to the end -- He's for life -- abundant life. He said, "I set before you the way of life and death, therefore, choose life. He didn't say choose life for some and death for others -- He just said LIFE.

There's also a lot of misconception about physically "dying". It isn't the worst that can happen to you, unless you have no conception of the Author of Life. It's the beginning of true existence. We're to choose all that life means while here in order to exist in true life afterward.


37 posted on 07/08/2006 8:06:15 AM PDT by Constitutions Grandchild
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To: Dog Gone

Oh, cut it out Dog Gone, you know we love you.


38 posted on 07/08/2006 8:08:26 AM PDT by AliVeritas ("One for all , all for kicking *ss and taking names" ...Scratch taking names.)
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To: NYer

"Dr. Stephen Minger, leading stem cell expert at Kings College, told the BBC, "Having been raised a Catholic I found this stance really outrageous."

"Are they going to excommunicate IVF doctors, nurses and embryologists who routinely put millions of embryos down the sink every year throughout the world?" he asked."

They SHOULD excommunicate for IVF as well. More embryos are destroyed through IVF than through embryonic stem cell research.


39 posted on 07/08/2006 8:08:43 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: MJG

So why is the church not called Peter's church??? Now exactly what is it that Peter could 'bind' here on earth that continues to be bound in heaven or Peter loose here on earth that continues to be loosed in heaven???

There are many examples the modern church no longer follows that Peter bound or loosed, Peter never claimed that Mary stayed a virgin and that she should be prayed to as intervener for we that followed. Just one small example.


40 posted on 07/08/2006 8:15:41 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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