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The Fish That Shoots Down Evolution
Vertical Thought Magazine ^ | June 2006 | Mario Seiglie

Posted on 07/04/2006 8:42:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC

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To: Secret Agent Man
There are no such examples of beneficial mutations.

What are you thinking?

Species do not breed true; they breed a whole array of variations on a theme, some of which are more survivable. The world is full of examples.

Example: A few thousand years ago a segment of the world's population found itself in a lower-sunlight, more-cold-than-usual environment. Certain traits already present in the sub-population were given a chance to out-breed others. The part of the world's population not subject to those forces had no pressure to adapt in the same way: it may have adapted to something different. Magnify those forces over a thousand generations, and you have evolution.

361 posted on 07/04/2006 9:31:41 PM PDT by Tax Government (Defeat the evil miscreant donkeys and their rhino lackeys.)
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To: DouglasKC
Fascinating. What is the physical mechanism that defines the limits that cannot be crossed?

Self correcting DNA. From Molecular Biology of the Cell

Yes, the copying fidelity of DNA is extraordinary. However copying errors do occur, You and I both have several mutations from our parents, just like every other living thing on earth. At some loci in the human genome there are more than 100 alleles. Yet Adam and Eve had 2 each. Noah's sons and their wives had 2 each (and Noah's sons presumably shared half their genetic material with each other). All other species sequenced have similar genetic variation that cannot have arisen from a single pair c. 5000 years ago. The copying fidelity of DNA does not represent a limit to change, just a limit on the pace of change.

362 posted on 07/05/2006 1:38:16 AM PDT by Thatcherite (I'm PatHenry I'm the real PatHenry all the other PatHenrys are just imitators)
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To: wbmstr24
Selection has not been shown empirically to generate unequivocally new or more complex genetic information or unequivocally new physiological traits or organs. It merely selects from the genetic potential for variation already inherent in the population’s combined genetic potential in the gene pool, that pool has its limits and cant be crossed, witness the over breeding of animals, they remain the dogs, cats, whatevers.....

So, how does speciation occur then?

363 posted on 07/05/2006 1:40:11 AM PDT by Thatcherite (I'm PatHenry I'm the real PatHenry all the other PatHenrys are just imitators)
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To: Secret Agent Man
I know exactly what a polonium halo is. You obviously don't.

Then you know that only an IDiot trying to fleece superstitious simpletons would even suggest on a public forum that polonium halos can be found in granite!

364 posted on 07/05/2006 1:58:57 AM PDT by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Wow, I am sure glad you admit how dumb you are. What an appropriate screen name.

That's it? Sheesh, at least your brethren actually try to fire back.

365 posted on 07/05/2006 3:49:07 AM PDT by freedumb2003 (Let them die of thirst in the dark.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Watch the DVD series "Incredible Creatures That Defy Evolution" Volumes 1-3.


366 posted on 07/05/2006 4:11:30 AM PDT by texpat72 (<><)
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To: DennisR

Which is why you REALLY shouldn't chime in on evo threads....you are clueless! You sound like a fourth grader.


367 posted on 07/05/2006 4:26:25 AM PDT by KeepUSfree (WOSD = fascism pure and simple.)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

Well, according to creationists, all critters were originally vegetarians, so any ability to shoot bugs from under the water had to have evolved since The Fall, and since this was ~6k years ago, evolution must've happened far quicker than Darwin even thought.


368 posted on 07/05/2006 4:31:16 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Mike Darancette

Huh? Are you saying that animals cannot learn from experience?


369 posted on 07/05/2006 4:33:35 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: DennisR

You're reply made absolutely no sense in light of the post to which you were replying.


370 posted on 07/05/2006 4:35:12 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: PatrickHenry

"I think I should help out the newbies: Evolution Troll's Toolkit."

Very nice.

George (who took four years of honors geology courses at Montgomery College, and was a docent for two years at the Smithsonian Institutes' Museum of Natural History Naturalist Center)


371 posted on 07/05/2006 4:53:23 AM PDT by George - the Other (There, but for the Grace of God)
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To: Amos the Prophet
You are comparing inanimate, non-living materials to life. Do you have that little respect for life as to compare it to wire & wood. Life is much, much more. And, in the same way that, we, as individual living creatures end up making extremely complex societies - which function as more than the individual - so does smaller life organize to form more complex life.

And, in the same way that our societies change, grow, mutate and die-off, so do individual organisms.

You want "the secret of life" - "the meaning of the universe"...here it is

BE HAPPY

I have personally spoken with God, and he commanded it.

If you think this requires years of study, worship, pennance and sacrifice, you are a fool.

After all, would you want anything less for "your children"?

372 posted on 07/05/2006 4:58:41 AM PDT by KeepUSfree (WOSD = fascism pure and simple.)
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To: wbmstr24
Yet, he would leave his chosen to have to kill and eat the flesh of other animals??? Doesn't make any sense to me.. And, if this was because of sin too.....didn't Jesus die "for our sins"...so why are we still having all these problems?

Geez, you think a REAL caring and compassionate God would have fixed up all of the problems by now....

Like, when I "create" a fish tank, I only populate it with species that won't eat each other. And, if they get a disease, I "heal" them. And, I'm only a stupid human. Your telling me your God can't do better than that??

Pretty piss-poor God if you ask me....

373 posted on 07/05/2006 5:05:43 AM PDT by KeepUSfree (WOSD = fascism pure and simple.)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts; Old_Professor

I submit this is how the game of darts evolved, Guinness Stout providing the "refraction".


374 posted on 07/05/2006 5:19:24 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Celtjew Libertarian

How would the "first fish" with a grooved mouth structure "know" that it could spew water that way to hit a target insect? As far as I know, no other fish shoots jets of water for any reason, dolphins and whales not being fish. Therefore, the whole evolution precept would seem to fall flat. A "learned skill" would have to be passed down from generation to generation via outright teaching or observation. If another fish that did not have this "grooved mouth structure" had the opportunity to watch and learn, it still could not do the same function............


375 posted on 07/05/2006 5:26:21 AM PDT by Red Badger (Follow an IROC long enough and sooner or later you will wind up in a trailer park..........)
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To: wbmstr24

you posited a way that is not verifiable, so it is no more than an opinion, not science.
______________

An interesting statement. Wouldn't carrying this statement out a bit further suggest that Christianity is "no more than an opinion" (as you say), because it is not verifiable?


376 posted on 07/05/2006 5:41:53 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Red Badger

"As far as I know, no other fish shoots jets of water for any reason,"

Hmm, slow changes over time to develop a specialty that insures survival. Sounds a lot like.... evolution.


377 posted on 07/05/2006 5:54:39 AM PDT by SaveUS
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To: Red Badger
How would the "first fish" with a grooved mouth structure "know" that it could spew water that way to hit a target insect?

It wouldn't "know." When it happened to be facing in the right direction it would get the extra food.

378 posted on 07/05/2006 6:06:36 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian
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To: DouglasKC

Um, if God creates nothing that kills, but created man who kills as a result of his free will (which God also created), hasn't God created something that kills.

Or does logic not apply?


379 posted on 07/05/2006 6:15:45 AM PDT by dmz
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
When it happened to be facing in the right direction it would get the extra food.

And water just happened to come forth out of its mouth for no obvious reason?...................

380 posted on 07/05/2006 6:19:20 AM PDT by Red Badger (Follow an IROC long enough and sooner or later you will wind up in a trailer park..........)
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