Deluded America

The Washington Times ^ | June 23, 2006 | Diana West

[siddude]

I can see it now, I think. It is on the right-hand page of a book by or about Winston Churchill, and it is a quotation by Churchill on the subject of war. Specifically, what happens to a civilized society when it goes to war with a barbarous one. I can't find it (yet), but what I remember as being the main point was that if the civilized society is to prevail over the barbarous one, it will necessarily and tragically be degraded by the experience as a vital cost of victory. Partly, this is because civilized war tactics are apt to fail against barbarous war tactics, thus requiring civilized society to break the "rules" if it is to survive a true death struggle. It is also because the clash itself — the act of engaging with the barbarous society — forces civilization to confront, repel and also internalize previously unimagined depredations. This is degrading, too.

[FrankR]

No...a little too dramatic...but instead of showing the servicemen writing messages on bombs, show them having a party and dipping all of their ammunition in a bucket of pigs' blood. Which one of the Islamic wants to get shot with one of those?

They would miss their 72 virgins. (Can you even imagine a religion that uses sex as the reward for their believers?)

[gondramB]

>>I really get pissed when Liberal spout their nonsense about we can't lower ourselves to the level of our enemy because we as a people are better than that.<<

If we aere not better, as in more ethical and moral, then we have no right to tell others what to do.

[AmeriBrit]

There's nothing wrong with the Generals of today IF they were allowed to do the job they've been trained to do.

Our problem today is we've allowed the pencil pushing critters in DC, who are only concerned about their own selfish image and re-election, too much control and say over how a war should be conducted.

At least 50% of our heroes/warriors that have been killed is because of the PC rules that have been forced on them and now have to follow.

Apparently those in DC have erased the words and meanings of 'Attacked' [as in 9/11] 'Enemy' and 'War' from their dictionaries and pea sized brains. They think they're experts because they've visited the 'war zone' inside the 'green zone'. They should go out where the real fighting is before they're allowed to voice their opinion on Sunday morning TV rounds.

It's time for them to keep their noses out and let our warriors do what they do best and quit charging them with murder etc everytime a bullet goes astray. Innocent people in every war get killed, it can't be helped. War is War.

[Sentis]

Yes we are better in peace but in a war we must be as ruthless in fact more ruthless than our enemy. They call us Devils lets show them HELL.

[lesser_satan]

The disastrous defeat at Gallipoli may have been a reason to discount him after WWI, but there's no excuse for shelving him after WWII. BTW, his History of the Second World War is the best book I've ever read on the subject.

[Dark Skies]

One of the advantages this enemy counts on is that they believe we are bound by stupid rules of gentlemanly behavior in war. We are boxing by the Marquiss of Queesnbury rules and they are using knives.

It is a shame that ultimately war is reduced to the lowest common denominator but the quicker we realize that it is and behave accordingly, the quicker and surer this war will be ended in our favor.

[driftless]

Liberals view this war like its some sort of glorified game, and we can treat terrorist prisoners like they are American citizens. This is simply reality-challenged insanity.

[TheCrusader]

"If we aere not better, as in more ethical and moral, then we have no right to tell others what to do."

It isn't about "telling others what to do", it's about defending ourselves after being attacked and having our way of life threatened. We did not ask for this war, we were dragged into it by the islamo-facists. They wanted to test us to see if we were able to defend ourselves from them, and to see what we're made of. In this scenario you had better be tougher and meaner than they are, or else get your women fitted for a burqua and find yourself a nice koran to read; because that will be eventual end of a meak but "morally superior" America.

Our military men are trained killers, the best in the world. So if an enemy chooses to attack and kill thousands of us, why on earth do we need to send our troops to respond with a 'superior moral ethic' than the attackers have? Are you suicidal or what? You're thinking like a girlscout, and girlscouts can't defend a nation, that's the job of the military.

[gondramB]

>>If we aere not better, as in more ethical and moral, then we have no right to tell others what to do.

This is basically the stupidest comment on the entire thread.<<

On reflection, you are correct. We should be able to act just like the enemy and yet still expect to be respected andhave others live the way we suggest.

[gondramB]

>>It isn't about "telling others what to do", it's about defending ourselves after being attacked and having our way of life threatened. We did not ask for this war, we were dragged into it by the islamo-facists. They wanted to test us to see if we were able to defend ourselves from them, and to see what we're made of. In this scenario you had better be tougher and meaner than they are, or else get your women fitted for a burqua and find yourself a nice koran to read; because that will be eventual end of a meak but "morally superior" America.<<


Those are excellent points. But thise is not the first terrible enemy we have faced nor will it be the last. If the response to Nazis or Stalinists or Islamofacists is to compromise what makes America different then we will become the same.

Our men (and women) are indeed incredible and we are sometimes called on to do terrible things - firing at a car that doesn't stop at a roadbloack only to find a pregnant woman inside - clear a house that's a source of enemy fire only to find the gunmen were hiding behind civilians. But no matter what the level of difficulty we can act better than Al Quaida would in the same situation. We can be different and still win.

[gogogodzilla]

Nope, we have to be meaner and more vicious than our enemy. Otherwise the war ends up as a stalemate.

When our vicious, cruel, and mean deeds force our enemies to surrender; then, by definition, we dictate their behavior afterwards.

That is, after all, the basic consequence of surrender.

Afterwords, when the war is over and peace has regained it's hold, can we then turn our attentions to rebuilding our moral character.

But the prerequisite to that is being alive and not under the control of our enemies. So anything that can quickly expedite that occurance should be used ASAP.

[Jacquerie]

We can be different and still win

Think of how far we were along in the first three years of WWII, compare it to the last three years in Iraq, and it is obvious that our tactics and attitude need to change. It is high time to stop placing our troops and Marines in near impossible urban combat situations where the irregular enemy melts into the local population.

I do not care about international opinion, the opinion of liberals nor the opinion of elites who think an American life is equal to or worth less than the life of a terrorist.

[Jacquerie]

We can be different and still win.

Please provide an historic example.

[gogogodzilla]

Those are excellent points. But thise is not the first terrible enemy we have faced nor will it be the last. If the response to Nazis or Stalinists or Islamofacists is to compromise what makes America different then we will become the same.

---

Ah, but you see, we DID adopt Nazi and Japanese war tactics in WWII.

Blitzkrieg? Yup, we eventually adopted those tactics.

U-boat attacks on shipping? Yup, did that too, eventually.

Carpet bombing of civilian infrastructure? Yup, we got REAL GOOD at that. (lest we forget, the German luftwaffe showed us the way with their attacks on London)

While our ethics never matched our enemies, we have always adopted our enemies tactics and used it against them.

And I currently don't see us adopting our enemy's tactics in this war... (cause we're just so GOOD!)

[hinckley buzzard]

I like this. It reminds me of PJ O'Rouke before Gulf War I. He said we should take a low-level aerial video of the South Bronx and send it to Saddam with a message: This is what we do to our own cities--imagine what we will do to yours...

[hinckley buzzard]

if the civilized society is to prevail over the barbarous one, it will necessarily and tragically be degraded by the experience as a vital cost of victory.

This is a risk not a certainty, and can be largely mitigated by a responsible and loyal media establishment. GI Joe did plenty of bad stuff in WW II and Ernie Pyle and his cohorts knew it well. But they had the maturity and loyalty to keep it off the newspapers and out of the newsreels.

They knew which side they were on, and what the stakes were. And that is what separates them from the current crop of degenerate whores and scoundrels who degrade the name of journalism by claiming to practice it.

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

Now, we stupidly place our forces at extreme risk by refusing to hold the Iraqis accountable for ferreting-out the terrorists. I say we start bombing the crap out of any building, town, city from which a terrorist attack is launched.

The Germans tried this in World War II. The Russians tried it in Afghanistan.

It has only one teensy-weensy flaw. It does not work.

[syriacus]

At least Americans were sane enough to vote this nutjob out of office.

In 2001, Daschle tried to ridicule folks who supported the Missile Defense Program, but made himself sound like a blabbering idiot.

June 8, 2001:
Tom Daschle, newly reseated Senate Majority Leader,* commented
about discussion of the Missile Defense program
"This isn't rocket science here"

Here is a transcript of Daschle's words.

Whether or not we want to violate the ABM treaty
especially with a concept [NMD program] that we may not know
...or...
that we do know now does not work
is something that also mystifies me.
I mean
Every aspect of the debate and the consideration
that is given this whole program
is... is troubling to me.
I... I mean... I...there's a disconnect there.
I mean...It just seems common sense....
I mean...there's no brain..
This isn't rocket science here...

Yes it IS rocket science....
that's the problem..
Hadn't thought about that..
As I just think out loud ....
as I meander through here.
(laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh)

*Jeffords had recently defected