Church mulls 'phrasing' change for Holy Trinity

The Washington Times ^ | June 20, 2006 | Richard Ostling

[pageonetoo]

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. -- At some Presbyterian churches the Holy Trinity -- "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" -- will be out. "Mother, Child and Womb" is in.

Delegates to the national assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) voted yesterday to "receive" a policy paper on sex-inclusive language for the Trinity, a step short of approving it. Church officials are enabled to propose "experimental liturgies" with "alternative phrasings" for the Trinity, but congregations won't be required to use them.

Besides "Mother, Child and Womb" and "Rock, Redeemer, Friend," options include:
• "Lover, Beloved, Love"
• "Creator, Savior, Sanctifier"
• "King of Glory, Prince of Peace, Spirit of Love"

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chairman Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during yesterday's debate on the changes.

The assembly narrowly defeated a conservative bid to send the paper back for further study, which would have killed it.

A panel that worked on the issue since 2000 said the classical language for the Trinity still should be used, but Presbyterians should seek "fresh ways to speak of the mystery of the triune God" to "expand the church's vocabulary of praise and wonder."..

[Charles Martel]

You forgot:

Curly, Larry & Moe.

The liturgy could be punctuated by the sounds of eye-pokes, bonks on the head and face-slaps.

Hey, if these fools want to make a comedy out of religion, I can certainly make sport of them.

[VeniVidiVici]

I am now a Methodist, a denomination which receives quite a bit of criticism on this blog, but which is, in the south at least, still pretty conservative. At least, we still have "Onward Christian Soldiers" and "Faith of Our Fathers" in the Methodist hymnal!

It's just a matter of time

Language was the touchiest issue for the Hymnal Revision Committee, and the topic of gender references to God and people was hotly debated. Several hymns and other texts were changed to replace masculine language with more inclusive words.

For Tuell, chairwoman of the text subcommittee, the language issue was important. "I feel like I'm a feminist, and I felt language was important after talking to my own baby boomer daughters and others of their ages, saying some of these texts turned them off. They couldn't see through the theology and the biblical language to the essential language because they kept being bothered by the masculine tone of the hymn. They didn't want to be 'brothers.' They were sisters."

The committee took a middle course with regard to language about humans and God, Marshall said. Composers of new texts were asked not to use the masculine pronouns solely to represent God, she said, while masculine references were left alone in some older, familiar texts. Archaic references to humans, using "thee" instead of "you," for example, all but disappeared.

When reading a text, committee members considered whether it was in harmony with the Bible, had good poetry and was theologically sound. Did it fit the tune? The "cultural look" of a hymn also was important, since the book had to reflect the church's diversity, Tuell said.

[HamiltonJay]

Well your theory may be correct, the only problem is, is that the churches they envelope decline and die.... the faithful either break off or leave.

The churches such as the presbyterian faiths where you don't have much formal structure are the most succeptable.

The more heirarchical churches are less so.. which is why they while having a nutjob priest here or there, don't have major debates or idiotic rulings.

It takes about 8 years of dedication and study for a Catholic to become a priest and be allowed a parish, let alone a bishop or archbishop... in the Presbytery you can be a pastor before you even have an associates degree... Can't "consecrate" the bread and wine.. which I find odd, since the presbytery doesn't believe in true transfiguration, I mean if its only symbolic what does it matter who does the act? And you don't have to live the faith, you don't live, eat and sleep your study and faith in cloister, just show up for class.... Which is why these faiths are being destroyed rapidly from within IMHO.

[null and void]

Daddy-o, Laddy-o, and the Spook..

[null and void]

[Miss Marple]

I don't think they care about numbers. What they want is the money and real estate. Many of the old churches, particularly the Presbyterians, Methodists, and Episcopals, have valuable real estate and endowments. Taking over the chucrches allows the liberals to glom onto all of that money and use it for their purposes, as well as garnering the public prestige and influence. You will note that although the mainline denominations are declining in membership, the media still asks them for opinions on any public controversies.

This infiltration is happening in churches which have real estate owned in common by the denomination, rather than by individual congregations. That is why I think a large portion of this is about money.

As far as the Catholic Church, I think an attempt WAS made to take it over, back in the seventies and 80's. The rise of EWTN and Mother Angelica, as well as the election of Pope Benedict, has stopped a lot of the nonsense. There are still dioceses where weird stuff happens (Los Angeles being one) but it seems to me that a lot of things are being corrected.

I also don't understand why they reserve communion for the ministers since it is symbolic. I only went to a Presbyterian church a couple of times so I don't know too much about them.

[Tokra]

I refuse to leave though and will stand tough and pray for the reform of our Bishops here in the U.S.

Good for you! That's exactly what the Church needs - fighters, not quitters. (kind of hypocritical coming from me - a back-slid Catholic.)

[rochester_veteran]

We also have a pretty decent bishop, which I know is part of any parish's problem. Have you looked for another parish?

My parish took a direct hit from the priest sexual abuse scandal. Several years before he came to my parish, our pastor used to take boys to his cabin... I don't need to say more. Why he was sent to our parish that has lots of young kids, I'll never know. We lost over 200 parishioners. The Diocese of Rochester sent a "listening" team to hear us out but it was total BS. The next priest to take over was much loved by all and when he was called back to Kenya, we raised enough money so he could have a Land Rover to get around and to carry supplies. He ended up in England, became an Anglican priest and got married. After folks in the parish raised a fuss, he sent the money for the Land Rover back and we donated it to his old Diocese in Kenya (they needed it very much).

We have a good priest now and parishioners are coming back. I'm concerned by the priest shortage we have. Our leadership for the Diocese of Rochester is very liberal. When you get a chance, click on this link and read, you'll get an idea of what we're dealing with in Rochester:

Mass for gay and lesbian Catholics, families and friends, Bishop Matthew Clark's Homily

BTW, welcome home! I was called back to the Church 8 years ago.

[longtermmemmory]

what did they do with the lord's prayer? "Our Father...."

[HamiltonJay]

The Catholic church's biggest problem was the deal with the devil it made by allowing homosexuals into the priesthood starting in the 60s... most of the problems in the US can be traced directly back to this decision.

Once they were in, they started trading sex for favor and power and austracizing anyone who stood up to them. The Dioceses that have been harmed the most are the ones where this influence grew the most, Boston, LA etc...

Benedict needs to purge these diocese rapidly and fully, and yes it will mean some very high ups in them will be forced out.. but it needs to be done.

[Protagoras]

The enemies are different, the theological equivalents of RINOs and libertarians perhaps, but if they prevail, the PCA and its kindred denominations will no longer be bulwarks of Biblical theology.

I'm not sure what that reference to libertarians means.

[AliVeritas]

I'm speechless.

[Wallace T.]

Just an analogy and not a perfect one (as none are). However, most libertarians disagree with conservatives in the areas of the moral underpinnings of law and whether local governments have a legitimate role in curbing vices and immoral behavior.

[SoothingDave]

When is it time to bale?

Make hay while the sun shines.

SD

[murdoog]

This is enough to drive a fella to Sabellianism!

[Protagoras]

However, most libertarians disagree with conservatives in the areas of the moral underpinnings of law and whether local governments have a legitimate role in curbing vices and immoral behavior.

Right, a good thing.

Most libertarians I know are moral people who disagree with pointing a gun at someone to accomplish God's business.

[Polyxene]

"Big Daddy, Little Daddy, and the spook."

The version I heard was:
"Daddio, Laddio and the Spook"
How about:
"Eeenie, Meenie, Miney-Moe"

SHEESH -- Just when you think you have heard it all from these lib/socialist "theologians", they come out with another outrageous dictum!

[gogeo]

"This does not alter the church's theological position, but provides an educational resource to enhance the spiritual life of our membership," legislative committee chairman Nancy Olthoff, an Iowa laywoman, said during yesterday's debate on the changes.

Why do they call Satan the Prince of Liars, Nancy?

[gogeo]

It's easier to hijack an existing organization, with its buildings and pension plans intact, than it is to start your own.

They can't build a church, or a government, or a country, or any other organization. Besides, it's not about how they believe they should be living their lives, it's about how they believe you should be living yours.

[Wallace T.]

This is not a libertarian vs. conservative thread, of course, but the analogy that I was attempting to make was a comparison with the difference between Federal Theology/New Perspective on Paul (FT/NPP) and historical Reformed theology is that the former denies the key Reformation doctrine of sola gratia by stating that continued and lifelong obedience to the Law is necessary for salvation. In this manner, the FT/NPP group has fallen into the semi-Pelagian error that characterizes Arminian/Wesleyan and Roman Catholic theology. Most libertarians, even if personally moral, adhere to some variant of utilitarian political philosophy. Conservatism, OTOH, is rooted in the concept of a higher moral authority, usually Biblical moral teaching, as the underpinning of political philosophy. Many conservatives, of course, are neither Christian nor Jewish, and some are atheist or agnostic. However, the concept of "nature's God" and "inalienable rights" underlying conservatism derive their origins from Christian thinkers as far back as the Apostle Paul, as well as classical Greco-Roman thought.