Posted on 06/14/2006 7:38:10 AM PDT by Small-L
bttt
Thanks for the ping!
After listening to your whining, I realize I JUST DON'T CARE what you "feel" should be the law.
It starts when the government tells us to shut up about morality and faith. Then government demands we turn over our children for 12 or more years, during which time government indoctrinates them about moral relativism and non-judgmentalism (the inability to discern right from wrong). So you end up with self-centered adults who are so unwilling to be considerate of each other, they cry to government for help.
There is nothing in the business world that makes the engine of liberty keep turning. It boils down to -- always boils down to -- the character of the people. So while I agree with you basically. I do not think you see the real problem. The slippery slope didn't start with gov't regulation of smoking on airplanes. It started with government meddling (via the judicial branch) with the freedom of the people to raise the next generation with Judeo-Christian values. You can win the smoking issue and fix nothing because it is such a minor symptom of the real disease. We hand over way too much control to government in 1000's of ways more important than this. Smokers should willingly not smoke on airplanes.
You still seem to think my arguments are only about smoking. In reality, I am only supporting free markets and private property rights. The market would be able to solve many of your concerns, if the government would get out of the way.
"We hand over way too much control to government in 1000's of ways more important than this."
Please explain to me what is more important than private property rights and letting the free market work?
I have to disagree with you regarding it being the fault of government schools. Some of the worst nanny-state mentalities I have encountered over the years have come from the same religious education background as I have. In fact many of them are my peers from those schools.
As to smoking bans on airlines, you have it backwards, the airlines went to the government AFTER most had already started restricting smoking on flights because they found they could save money my cutting back the number of air changes they had to make per hour. The air on airplanes was actually healthier to breath back when smoking was permitted than it is now.
Raising children with a strong moral and ethical sense. If the character of the people fails, there is no protection for property or liberty. The free market would be a disaster in the hands of unethical people.
"Statesmen my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. ... The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." --John Adams
"That wise Men have in all Ages thought Government necessary for the Good of Mankind; and, that wise Governments have always thought Religion necessary for the well ordering and well-being of Society, and accordingly have been ever careful to encourage and protect the Ministers of it, paying them the highest publick Honours, that their Doctrines might thereby meet with the greater Respect among the common People." --Benjamin Franklin
Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in the Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the opposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that National morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." --George Washington
"Can the liberties of a nation be sure when we remove their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people, that these liberties are the gift of God?" -- Thomas Jefferson.
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -- John Adams
"Star Parker: "[A]s we enjoy the unprecedented prosperity that our freedom has made possible, we are losing a sense that every benefit has a cost, and that the other side of the coin of increased freedom is increased responsibility."
"[A] good moral character is the first essential in a man... and your conduct here may stamp your character through life. It is therefore highly important that you should endeavor not only to be learned but virtuous." --George Washington
"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God." -- Gouverneur Morris, writer of much of the U.S. Constitution, 1752-1816
"The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man." --G.K. Chesterton, from "What I Saw in America", 1922
"Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them." --Joseph Story
"We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come." -- Samuel Adams, statement made after all delegates signed the Declaration of Independence, 1776
"Raising children with a strong moral and ethical sense."
Which is not possible without private property rights and the free market. The destruction of the free market in education is what is directly leading to your frustrations. Next the nanny will tell parents what to do in their own homes. Just wait until they decide the bible is hate speech.
You might hate money, but believe me the persuit of profits will give you more freedom to raise children with morals and a strong faith. You might not believe it, but the reality it has been proven time after time.
Keep in mind that the tools used by the Righteous Right (WOsD or Tobacco bans) are the tools that will be used by the Liberal Left against religeon (ban bibles in homes.) Both are just as dangerous to individual liberty as the other.
No, you're missing his point.
You can't have a tyranny buffet, where you just choose to implement certain things.
Let's be real; there are some places that must ban smoking -- like hospitals
And just why is that, exactly?
placemarker bump
I said earlier that government interference is the problem. So we agree on that. I just do not see the smoking ban issue the same way you do. You see the problem with the ban. I see the problem with the desire. What kind of people create a market for something that so irritates their fellow citizens, even causing major problems for some? Certainly not the kind of people that can maintain liberty for long.
So yes, government intrusion is a big part of the problem, probably even started the problem in ways I described previously. I just think government intrusion in areas of religious freedom and community moral standards is infinitely more harmful to our freedom than just a smoking ban on airplanes. We don't let private companies polute rivers do we? Breathing air is not a choice, so you can gripe about tyranny all you want, but it becomes the tyranny of the majority when the majority (or even a strong minority) creates a market where you either breathe in nasty air or you don't fly. The problem is with people who are so selfish that they don't care about the discomfort they put others in.
And who would determine who's "fit" for liberty?
You?
People don't raise "generations," they raise their own children.
Collectivist tyrants on the right are just as dangerous as collectivist tyrants on the left.
Do you have amnesia?
There were smoking and non-smoking sections in airplanes in the past.
Were you trussed up and forced to sit in the smoking section against your will?
Do the scars still show?
I dunno, if they can tell you "all alcohol must be consumed on premises"...
All? I dunno, but I'll give it a try.
:O)
I'm a smoker and sat next to two guys who got drunk on the plane.
The flight attendants pushed the booze because we were delayed one hour before take off.
They were well on the way before we even left the ground.
I would have had a much better trip(10 hours) if they had been smoking.
Would you consider those 2 men selfish people the way you consider smokers?
Yes I would. I don't blame you for finding them annoying. One difference, you didn't have to drink with them. Smoke is different in that it goes into the air and can be a real problem for some people. Ten hours may be a long time for a smoker, but it is also a long time for someone allergic to smoke, or just extremely bothered by it.
For the record, I'm not saying government intervention is a good thing. I'm just saying if people behaved better, it wouldn't get to this point.
You'd be perfect for the job.
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