Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle.
Shortly after the U.N. headquarters was bombed in Baghdad in August 2003, a Special Forces unit went to Ramadi to capture those responsible.
In a fierce exchange of gunfire, one insurgent was hit seven times by 5.56 mm bullets, reports CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian. It took a shot to the head with a pistol to finally bring him down. But before he died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven more.
"The lack of the lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," says Maj. Anthony Milavic.
Milavic is a retired Marine major who saw three tours of duty in Vietnam. He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy, and contends that urban warfare in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot," he says. "And keeps him down."
Milavic is not alone. In a confidential report to Congress last year, active Marine commanders complained that: "5.56 was the most worthless round," "we were shooting them five times or so," and "torso shots were not lethal."
In last week's Marine Corps Times, a squad leader said his Marines carried and used "found" enemy AK-47s because that weapon's 7.62 mm bullets packed "more stopping power."
(Excerpt) Read more at kutv.com ...
Do you mean caliber 7.62 mm?
A friend of mine's dad (now deceased) said the BAR (30-06) he carried on Iwo did a number on the Japanese that had the unfortunate occurance to find themselves in front of his muzzle! I think he said, "Not much in the way of talk-back when I hit 'em".
LLS
>>>He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, and is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy<<<
This can't be? The .223 round is used in several so-called "Assault Rifles" which the Drive-By Media has determined to be very dangerous weapons in the hands of anyone but their bodyguards, or the police.
[There is no doubt that, given the same circumstances, a 7.62 round will have more stopping power than a 5.56 round.]
Sir, please clarify the above statement.
A 7.62 round, more commonly called the .308 here in America, is a better fight stopper than the 5.56.
However, the 5.56 is superior compared to the round commonly shot by our raghead enemies, which measures 7.62 x 39.
[In the heat, over a long distance, with all the body armor used in Iraq, I'd take the M-16 where I could carry more ammo.]
Absolutely correct, sir! Me, too.
[Why do we go through this again and again? This seems more appropriate over a few beers with old soldiers and foggy memories.]
LOL!!!
The 7.62mm X 51mm round is overkill for CQB
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/200512022.asp
Yes, but the military primarily uses an AP bullet for the .223, so you are putting a .22 hole (with a lot less energy) through a target. If it was a Partition or a something like that, not a huge problem. But the .223 is still pretty under powered compared with the .308. In Nebraska, the regulations are not on caliber but on the amount of energy the bullet has at 100 yards. Most .308 Winchester rounds will meet the requirements (900 ft pounds at 100 yards) but unless you hand load you will find few .223's that will.
I can understand partially the reason the switch was made. You can carry a lot more ammo and there is little recoil with a .223, and yes it can eliminate a target. But with military ammo, in a kill or be killed situation, I would personally choose something a lot more powerful than a .223.
Another argument early in the introduction of the 5.56mm was the twist of the bullet. It originally was barely stable in flight. As soon as it hit the target, it tumbled. Then they noticed in cold weather, it became unstable right after it left the barrel. So they tightened the twist. Then the steel cored Nato SS109 bullet made that a problem, so they tightened the twist even more. That eliminated a lot of the original lethality of this round.
Check this web site for a more in-depth history of the deveolment in the 5.56mm Nato cartridge:
http://www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html
I was very lucky to buy a Springfield Armory M1A .308 semi auto (civilian version of the M14) several years ago, it also came with a rare Choate folding stock and with a Leupold tactical scope.
sweet!
sweet!
sweet!
As far as stopping power with crazed fanatics its either a lot of really small supervelocity rounds or flechettes or a single high mass round.
Recently there has been lots of news of the MetalStorm system, perhaps 25-50 round bursts would be better from a multi barreled rifle? or better yet develope a battle rifle using railgun technology firing hyperspeed rounds, similar to the ones in the Swarzennegger movie, they do exist though probably still not too portable.
Either that or use caseless ammo with exploding heads.
For my bear hunting ammo in Alaska I prefer the Barnes X bullets that spread out like a high speed propeller and leaves a huge hole for maximum blood loss.But thats the .338 and .375 rounds.
All you have to do is shave the point a little. This will cause the bullet to deflect at an angle upon impact. So, rather than a thru and thru, the bullet travels a random path through the target.
CBS needs to watch their own stories. The dreaded and evil "assault rifle" in civilian hands is all powerful, certainly far too powerful for American citizens, but now they tell us it may not be powerful enough.
Don't tell me that CBS lied to me!
[Stoopid gun n00b question: if I wanted to purchase a M-14, what is the closest I can get legally? Make, models, and availability please.]
Check out Springfield Armory's selection, if that's the rifle you want. SA has a new M14 called the SOCOM II that has a bunch of rails for hanging SureFires, vertical grips, and sights. Yes, these are VERY important and, at the very minimum, a light is mandatory on any rifle you'd grab for protection. Price should be $1,500-1,800 for the rifle. Accessories are extra.
Ouch! That had to have hurt!
LLS
And soft nosed hollow point.
The fine print of the CMP is it's for developing marksmanship. In other words, you have to be a competitor in order to buy from the Civilian Marksmanship Program even if it's for a single match. You have a lot of other requirements such as belonging to a approved club or state association. Belonging to the NRA doesn't count.
Don't let any of this discourage you. Half the fun of getting a rifle from the government is getting the govenment to deliver you that rifle to your door. A friend loved the look on his Mailman's face when he told him what was just delived. The Mailman was shocked and told him he couldn't do that. My friend said he didn't. YOU DID. Still funny. Today, it's handled by one of the civilian shipping companies like FedEx.
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