With this effect:
Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle.
Shortly after the U.N. headquarters was bombed in Baghdad in August 2003, a Special Forces unit went to Ramadi to capture those responsible.
In a fierce exchange of gunfire, one insurgent was hit seven times by 5.56 mm bullets, reports CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian. It took a shot to the head with a pistol to finally bring him down. But before he died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven more.
"The lack of the lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," says Maj. Anthony Milavic.
Milavic is a retired Marine major who saw three tours of duty in Vietnam. He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy, and contends that urban warfare in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot," he says. "And keeps him down."
Milavic is not alone. In a confidential report to Congress last year, active Marine commanders complained that: "5.56 was the most worthless round," "we were shooting them five times or so," and "torso shots were not lethal."
In last week's Marine Corps Times, a squad leader said his Marines carried and used "found" enemy AK-47s because that weapon's 7.62 mm bullets packed "more stopping power."
(Excerpt) Read more at kutv.com ...
During World War 2 the Army did ballistic tests on all sorts of cartridges from big bore to timed explosive bullets. Their research found that it didn't really matter what type of bullet you used, the only way to put a man down reliably was to shoot him in one of 3 places:
1. The head
2. The spine
3. The long bones of the leg
It doesn't mean a bigger bullet won't kill an assailant. It concluded that yes, 3-4 shots to the chest will kill a man eventually but a .22 to the head had essentially the same effect as blowing it off with a shotgun. Placement has always been critical to putting down an assailant quickly and efficiently.
30-06
What you said. At the end of the day, it comes down to who can put the most rounds on target the fastest. Nothing else matters.
Why does this round remind me of the "Black Rhino"?
Springfield armory used to make one, called the M-1A. Semi auto version, had the magazine etc. Was esentially for targets but looked almost like the real deal and was very expensive. Don't know if they still make it or not. Probably good google and find out fast enough.:)
BINGO! You hit the nail on the head!!
With this effect:
The wound channel created by the .30 will cause the adversary to bleed out faster that if hit by the 5.56 but it's during this time that the adversary has been mortally wounded but isn't yet dead that they can deliver their parting shots.
As anyone who has hunted deer knows, a deer hit in the lungs and heart by a 30-06 180gr soft point at close range can still run 50-100 yards before going down. Replace the soft point with a ball round and the mortally wounded deer can run even farther before going down.
[I have had my eyes on my brother's M-1 Garand for years but the only way he'll give it up is after the death grip has gone.]
For a fraction of the cost of either your Mini 14 or CAR-15, you can buy a WW2 vintage M1 Garand straight from the US gubbermint through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Prices start at just $295.
Imagine that! A gubbermint program that actually benefits American shooters and promotes shooting!
Search out Civilian Marksmanship Program for the details.
M-1 Garand. Now, THAT'S a rifle! .30-'06 rocks!!!
Penetration is a function of velocity and sectional density -- caliber has nothing to do with it. The standard .223 M855 cartridge will out-penetrate the standard .308 ball in the real world.
The physics is not all that intuitive. Haven't you ever wondered why a short-action 6.5mm is rated for moose but a .308 isn't?
Lets give 'em real guns and quit messin' around! 308 or 30-06
Nah!
Must be old age creeping up on me...
That or some analyst's conviction that cost/weight always trumps stopping power.
(Actually, I'm OK with current .223 as available to civilians, the old 5.5 whatever ball stuff has hopefully been shot out and upgraded by now.)
For a fraction of the cost of either your Mini 14 or CAR-15, you can buy a WW2 vintage M1 Garand straight from the US gubbermint through the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Prices start at just $295.
That's AWESOME!!! Definitely have to look into that.
Gotcha....
;-)
Stan Bulmer, Le Mas, RBCD, and their "blended metal bullets" (which actually contain ZERO blended metals) have all been totally and completely discredited by the best American ballistic scientists.
These magical, unicorn-mutilating bullets are all hype. Anyone who buys Bulmer's double speak probably also believed the "I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky" lie, as well.
The best performing 5.56 round is the Hornady TAP. RBCD doesn't even come close.
I'm a Hydra-Shok guy, myself.
They're all good.
Default Army study affirms effectiveness of M855 5.56mm ammo
PICATINNY ARSENAL, N.J. -- The Army has completed a detailed study of the effectiveness of its standard-issue M855 5.56mm ammunition cartridge that is used in the M16 and the M4 rifles.
The study found no significant difference between the M855 and commercially available 5.56mm rounds during close fighting.
A team of military, scientific, medical, engineering and law enforcement experts conducted the study for the Army’s Project Manager, Maneuver Ammunition Systems located here.
“All of the rounds studied performed in a band of effectiveness that will produce excellent results in real-life situations,” Col. Mark D. Rider said.
The study sought to answer whether any commercial, off-the-shelf 5.56mm bullets that perform better than M855 against unarmored targets in Close Quarters Battle might be available.
It was limited further to determining if the Army could quickly purchase and field a possible replacement for the M855 and did not consider replacing the current inventory of 5.56mm weapons with weapons of another caliber.
“This was not a caliber study” Rider said. “However, it did find that the current family of 5.56mm weapons and the older 7.62mm M14 have the same potential effectiveness in the hands of a Warfighter during the heat of battle.”
The study also showed an increase in lethal potential when the marksmanship technique of firing controlled pairs, i.e. firing two rounds in rapid succession, was used.
Rider said the Army will continue to study variations in performance that some Soldiers and Marines to criticize the M855 while the overall majority are satisfied with its effectiveness.
He also noted that researchers believe that interaction between the weapon and the bullet may be the root cause of “through-and-through.”
In arriving at these conclusions, the team developed ground-breaking tools and methodologies that apply sophisticated modeling and equipment normally reserved for the study of high-dollar systems such as tanks and artillery to less costly weapons for the very first time.
As a result, new standards for testing small caliber ammunition are emerging that will help bring the science of more costly system to individual weapon.
Rider said that his organization is beginning to study how commercially available rounds perform against common battlefield barriers like body armor, car doors, and windshield glass compared to the M855. Answers to these questions will help improve the lethal capability of the ground forces for decades into the future, he said.
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum
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