Posted on 06/07/2006 5:42:42 PM PDT by jmc1969
As American troop casualties in Iraq continue to mount, concern is growing they may be outgunned. That includes new questions about the stopping power of the ammunition that is used by the standard-issue M-16 rifle.
Shortly after the U.N. headquarters was bombed in Baghdad in August 2003, a Special Forces unit went to Ramadi to capture those responsible.
In a fierce exchange of gunfire, one insurgent was hit seven times by 5.56 mm bullets, reports CBS News chief investigative correspondent Armen Keteyian. It took a shot to the head with a pistol to finally bring him down. But before he died, he killed two U.S. soldiers and wounded seven more.
"The lack of the lethality of that bullet has caused United States soldiers to die," says Maj. Anthony Milavic.
Milavic is a retired Marine major who saw three tours of duty in Vietnam. He says the small-caliber 5.56, essentially a .22-caliber civilian bullet, is far better suited for shooting squirrels than the enemy, and contends that urban warfare in Iraq demands a bigger bullet. "A bullet that knocks the man down with one shot," he says. "And keeps him down."
Milavic is not alone. In a confidential report to Congress last year, active Marine commanders complained that: "5.56 was the most worthless round," "we were shooting them five times or so," and "torso shots were not lethal."
In last week's Marine Corps Times, a squad leader said his Marines carried and used "found" enemy AK-47s because that weapon's 7.62 mm bullets packed "more stopping power."
(Excerpt) Read more at kutv.com ...
**What, exactly is a dum-dum bullet?***
It is a soft nosed bullet manufactured by the British government at the Dum-Dum arsenal in India.
Only a journalist or a fiction writer refers to a sawed or filed off tip of a full metal jacket bullet as a "dum-dum.
OK, lets go back and look at the history of the M16/Stoner/Armalite. The round used is a full metal jacket, but the jacket is extremely thin. Upon impact, the jacket disintegrates and the bullet explodes. That's why entry wounds are tiny, but exit wounds are the size of a fist.
This weapon was specifically designed to circumvent the Geneva Convention prohibitting the use of dum-dum/hollow point ammunition, I believe after WW1.
The beauty of this weapon is that because the bullet loses form on impact, it has the stopping power of larger rounds. Therefore, troops could carry around much larger amounts of ammo without the added weight. Stoner was brilliant.
When your enemy is drugged out on hashish and narcotics, its gonna take a lot to put him down. Unless you hit a vital organ it could be tough. I am reminded of the movie Scarface where Pacino is shot over and over again and goes on mowing down his attacker, till someone comes up and shoots him in the head with a shotgun.
What do you think of Speer Gold Dot versus Remington Golden Sabres?
Give our men 30 cals. (7.62 mm) again, then. All who cannot handle those rounds can be REMFs.
Yep, .223 is too small. What I can't figure out is why anybody is treating this as a new concern.
Too quote one of my favorite movie characters..."I prefer the Thompson."
Can someone please explain to me how a frangible bullet could penetrate steel plate?
Mark
I've got a Federal Ordinance M-14S, as well as a Mini-14. They look so cute together!
Mark
I think you're right.
Since I know about other stuff like McNamara pushing the F-111 because he liked GD's new computerized supply inventory system, it wouldn't surprise me if your M-16 story is true.
The General - C. LaMay, owner/operator of SAC, back in the "old" USAF.
"This is the Haditha one-two. If the holes in the victims are from AK-47's, the press is laying the groudwork to say the Marines did it anyway. Plain and simple, folks."
Good catch BUMP!
Good. It's about time this PC groundhog round got the slamming it deserves. Go back to something in .30 caliber.
LOL, they aren't in storage! Those M-14's are being used as sniper rifles.
The unit that replaced us had about 10 M-14's and a couple of the Barrett 50 cals. They were an Mountain Infantry company, but we had all of the M9's that did more to stop Iraqi's than any other weapon system...cuz EVERONE in Iraq was scared of the pistol. (even crappy M-9's)
Check Springfield Armory or Fulton for the M1A. Multiple configurations and prices are available. The principle difference is the M1A is semi-auto only. M14 was select fire. Pricing varies based on barrel quality, stock quality, embedding or not of the action in the stock.
That's great to hear. Haven't they renamed the M-14 to the M-21, or something like that?
THE MILITARY HAS BEEN AWARE OF THE 5.56MM FOR QUITE SOME TIME. ITS LEATHALITY IS LIMITED BY DISTANCE AND AS TO THE MENTAL STATE OF THE PERSON BEING SHOT. APPARENTLY THE TERRORISTS BULK UP ON HASH AND KAT BEFORE BATTLE. IN ORDER TO BRING THEM DOWN A LARGER CALIBER AND WEIGHTIER BULLET IS REQUIRED. THE MARINE CORPS DEVELOPED THE 6.8MM ROUND. THIS IS SIMILIAR TO THE .270 CAL. THE NEW ROUND IS ALMOST DOUBLE THE WEIGHT OF THE 5.56MM.
IT IS LETHAL OUT TO 500 METERS AND CLOSE UP DOES A GREAT JOB. THE CHANGE OVER IS SIMPLE AND ONLY REQUIRES THE REPLACEMENT OF THE UPPER RECEIVER. YET THE MILITARY IS HESITANT TO USE IT.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION THE M1 GARAND WAS ORIGINALLY CHAMBERED IN .270 CAL. GEN. MACARTHUR QUASHED ITS USE BECAUSE WE HAD TOO MUCH .30 CAL AMMO LEFT OVER FROM WWI.
LOL, not the ones these boys had. They were NG out of NH and the weapons they had were seriously Vietnam vintage. The wooden stocks were about as weathered as the porch of the farmhouse my dad grew up on.
The story I read was the M16 was a very good weapon that didn't jam (yes I can hear everyone gnashing their teeth). However, when the army got a hold of it they used a lower class of gunpowder that didn't burn as hot and clean and made some other modifications. The army brought the inventor to their lab to ask why they were having problems. His reply, " I don't know, that isn't the weapon I gave you." or something to that effect. I believe it.
If you were in the army back in the 90s, look at the pt sweats. Did those things fit anyone right. I could never understand why the army couldn't just go to Nike or some other company that made sweats and have them put US Army on it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.