Posted on 05/30/2006 9:42:08 PM PDT by LdSentinal
As far as the powerful chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee is concerned, the controversial Senate bill on immigration reform is as dead as a duck.
Appearing Tuesday on "Lou Dobbs Tonight," Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., told Dobbs that he couldn’t imagine how the Senate bill "could ever be considered in the House of Representatives [when] the overwhelming majority of Republicans are against it.” This, he said "is amnesty. The more the senators deny it, Democrat and Republican, the more they deny it, the more the president denies it, it's amnesty. And the American people don't want it. I've never seen a disconnect between the will of the people and the actions of elected officials as we've seen in the Senate.
"And this is just a total disconnect, and as a Republican, our base is totally against it. But it goes beyond it; these are Reagan Republicans, and Democrats, independents, moderates -- across the board people are opposed. They want border security first.”
Commenting on Dobbs’ remark that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., had described the Senate bill as the will of the Senate, King snapped: "The will of the Senate was not the will of the people. What really offends me about this is they say it has to be comprehensive, which means, on the one hand we have to protect the rights of the American people by having border security.
"On the other hand we have to protect the rights of illegal immigrants. So they are suggesting there's an equivalency between the rights of legal Americans and the rights of illegal immigrants, and you can't do both at the same time. So they are trying to balance the two, and when you do that, you're never going to get border security. After 20 years of promises, we don't have border security. There's no reason to think we're going to get it now unless we focus all our at attention on that.”
When Dobbs asked if it is possible four and a half years after 9/11 "for this White House to comprehend, for that Senate to comprehend, there are about 280 million Americans out here who deserve protection at their ports and at their borders and that the people are sick and tired. They've had a belly full of the nonsense. They want the borders secured. They want the ports secured, and really don't want to hear any more about free trade and impediments to commerce.”
Said King: "You're right, it's almost now, almost five years since Sept. 11. And border security is homeland security. Our world changed on Sept. 11. If there was ever the luxury of looking the other way on illegal immigration, it ended on Sept. 11. We have to secure the border, not just for economic and cultural and social reasons, we have to secure it to preserve our security, our homeland security.”
Agreed, and still this issue has enough clout enough to bring him in tow temporarily. Important lesson for a NE Liberal. I agree w/your analysis/strategy. We could afford to trade some RINO house seats for some Rat converts and this issue could just do the trick. The Senate will learn from this as well if we clobber a couple of RINOs and take the rest to shed for a Conservative Talking To and there are lots of Rat senators up for re-election that I think should be weakened by their support of S2611. We need to let them know though that we will remember their nonsense in '08 and shake up the Class II (2008-9) bunch which has more RINOs in it. The RNC needs to be roughed up as well. This nonsense they are supporting on immigration and their continued financial support of RINOs with no strings attached really is disgusting. Best chance they have had since Gingrich to hammer the Rats and they seem hell bent to squander it. Blue Nose Back Room Boys at work.
He would sign it. No Choice. Complete loss of control if he vetos. Real Lame duck. Would get nothing done but plan his "Library".
We gave up our sovereignty when we signed NAFTA. By 2010, we will be using a currency called AMERO, and the region of Canada, U.S., and Mexico, will be one union. That is the goal, and that is why there is NO BORDER POLICY. (except to let everyone flow in.)
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15017
No.........
The problem is that they don't get it.
If the status quo wins this debate, it will be the worst thing that has happened regarding immigration and it's myriad of issues in decades.
We have been ramping up border security for the last twenty years with the effect being that the illegal population grew by a factor of 10, and the underground economy that supports them has mushroomed accordingly.
The only thing that will slow illegal entry if this plan fails, will be the eventual reduction of people who want to get in as a result of the fact that they are all here already and there are fewer left who want to come.
The signal sent will be, "come now, before Bush's term is over and this issue comes back to Congress." "Come now, before it is too late and Americans finally get some sense......
If it fails, this issue is dead until there is a new president, and I suspect it will not be a Republican.
If the GOP insists on amnesty it will be seriously weakened as a national party for years to come. If it passes the demographics will vastly strenthen the Rats and bleed the GOP dry of any conservative support. The only viable course for the GOP is to pass a security only package. That is why he would sign it..He would have no real legacy otherwise. He has no permanent accomplishments but the awful "no child left behind" Kennedy act to point to and the WOT which he had to prosecute. My bet is the House will block the stpid nonsense from the Senate and nothing will get done which may well be as bad for the GOP as an amnesty bill. They will have let the Rats put them in a box from which they may not escape. Actually one could say Bush, the RINOs, and the Rats have put them (and US) in the box.
Conservatives, or which I once was one and in most circles am still considered to be one...(except on this forum) have been threatening to leave for years....
Some did, and then came back after they destroyed the third party they gravitated to.
So what is new?
Nothing at all....
Sounds good to me, now lets see how many RINO's and liberal traitors will campaign on the issue of amnesty for all.
Some left and never came back, and some have held their noses based on the "lesser of two weavels" argument. That argument has ceased to hold water as the GOP has steadfastly rejected the values that brought the Conservatives into the base. You will see Conservatives leaving in droves and not won back with cynical appeals that the GOP is just less worse than the Rats. The illegal alien issue before us is nothing less than the destruction of our society. No conservative can be for that and remain a conservative. The true conservative component of the GOP base will be lost (which is the object of the RINOs and Liberal wing since they are more comfortable as Leftist in the minority party) and also the independents who for the most part vote for the common sense (generally conservative) candidate. I wish you well but believe you are dead wrong in your philosophy and your assessment of the issue.
Yeah, but I've seen it many times before, and they always come back, which is my point.
Frankly, I wish all the single issue and unappeasables would stay gone, but they never do.
No matter how much whine and cheese is displayed, the fact that the "Party" is huge and diverse will constantly aggravate and re-aggravate the same people, over and over again until they get it.
Some modicum of compromise in needed to be a member of ANY political party, and that is just the simple reality of it.
Political realities shift like the sands of a large desert.
You ignore the realities at your peril, and creating the realities that fit your opinions is not and never has been successful, possible or advantageous in the long run.
Politics is local and fickle, especially in North America where conspiracy theorists abound, and public opinions ride the winds of the media.
Political ignorance and shallow conceit appear to rule todays political landscape. We are fast becoming the crude, ignorant dullards that the Europeans have long held as the truth about American politics, and I am coming swiftly to the same conclusions, after such nonsense as the Dubai port upheavals, the Shiavo incident where Conservative forces ignored some of our most closely held Constitutional principles in favor of emotional rhetoric.
I find all of this to be the senseless result of Conservatives who have run amok, and have bitten off far more than they can chew.
The sad thing is that it has all occurred before in a variety of ways, as the party searches for it's core and tries to win elections at the same time.
To get back to basics is essential, and the very definition of politics tells us that it is the "art of compromise". Those who cannot or will not do so, are not working in the best interest of the party and therefore should remain the side show, and a steering current that helps to guide the direction.
Unfortunately, they cannot be trusted to lead, and that is how I view this. When placed in a leadership role, these single issue or myopic politicians will and have damaged the party and public perception to get what they want, and are selfish, self worshiping, pompous and instant gratification ninny's who can't see the damages that they have caused to the future prospects of the party as a whole.
I am a conservative in every way that has meaning, but I am not a fool. We either hang together of hang separately, and the odds now favor the separate hangings as unity fall apart like a cheap suit.
This is why candidates for the '08 presidency will vie for the center that you despise so openly, and the base will disintegrate and be rebuilt for 2012. The average American "Joe blow" voter has seen enough of what the Republican party has to offer and will most assuredly return to a split power sharing gridlock that seemed to work much better than the current situation.
I did not cause this...I'll not take any of the responsibility for this debacle. The blame for which lies squarely on the shoulders of the Conservative right and the various interest groups that comprise it. A Conservative right that I will no longer be associated with because it is far too flawed to win elections in the future and without power, we cannot change or guide the country. We had it, but we will not have it for much longer because we failed to gain the trust of the American people.
Reagan was correct when he faced similar circumstances within the party and managed to guide them out of the abyss by saying thing like, "Thou shall not say negative things about fellow Republicans".(paraphrased as I recall it)
It's a damn shame that many conservatives have apparently ignored this advice at their peril............But they did.....and continue to do so.
It is only recently that the browbeating and rhetorical battle has developed a more personal slant and has become a serious problem within the party.
Basically, the far right has defined Conservatism to mean ...."like them". This has caused a backlash of major proportions and the party faithful will indeed hold firm. They have had enough name calling and insults to last a lifetime.
You are not going to shove this party to do what you want. What you will get is a huge headache from banging it against a very thick wall.
The immigration issue is not black and white. We are not to blame for it, it simply is. It is both complex and simple, with some solutions having multiple issues, just as others do not. It requires a comprehensive solution and all we need to do in order to see this fact is to see the results of or past attempts to fix it.
You call me a liberal, which is a response that I have gotten here for a couple years or more. Every political test I have taken puts me to the right of center and just a tad authoritarian. It puts me in line with Bush and only slightly left of Reagan,,,very slightly. As I said, there are two perspectives and I see you as just being wrong. There is no liberal or conservative right and wrong. Conservatives have been wrong a great deal lately. They are being agitated by those who wish to agitate, and they have been doing a lot of emotional thinking and rationalizations. They are doing this willingly and without much introspection, and that is not a good thing. Most conservatives look before they leap. At least they once did...but something happened after the 2004 elections. I think the party was infiltrated by those who wish to do us harm.
In the end, all this will cause the loss of the one thing that can effect change, and that is political power. Without it, nothing happens, and unless the party can come to agreement, nothing happens or will ever happen.
Sometime gridlock is preferable to big tactical errors, so if nothing comes from this immigration debate except for the usual tweaks, it won't matter.
If they can somehow meld the House and Senate versions by dropping the extremes of both, we might have something that can be used as a foundation for a long term fix to the security, assimilation, and numbers problems. If not, the status quo will get another mark in the win column, just as happened in Social security, which was also the result of party infighting.
This term is dead, so I would not blame Bush if he withdrew and concentrated on foreign policy. Clinton was forced to do the same, so it appears we have a trend.
I think the major reason for it all, is far too much thinking with the wrong side of the brain......sort of a estrogen fart.
Wrong, the nature of our country is at stake. This matter has reached critical mass and must be dealt with, whatever your perception of how we got here. This is not an "immigration debate" as the liberal left would like to couch it. It is a matter of how we deal wilth illegal aliens over-running our society. As for you claim to Conservatism, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it most likely is a duck, protestations to the contrary not withstanding. You define yourself my friend, I have nothing to do with it.
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King accurately reflects his constituency.
There's no way for you to know this but King was solid and vocal on this issue way before it was in the spotlight.
Conservatism is not synonymous with the position taken by some in the party. Conservatism is also not synonymous with the religious right positions or the positions of the social conservatives, the fiscal conservatives or the neocon hawk.
All of these things are small parts of a whole, and none of these positions are written in stone. They are simply positions and there is disagreement within the party on each and every one of them. The illegal balkanization crap hit the fan decades ago and to repeat the process endlessly makes little sense. Bush understands that, but there are always the narrow minded people who respond to intentional agitation by those who only wish to agitate with something we call agitprop.
What we try to do is envision a big picture where everyone has a opportunity to bring their positions to the forefront and achieve some success in convincing the others. We try to stay away from the emotional garbage, as the Democrats generally have that nasty mentality. But here I see a segment of the party that call themselves the true conservatives, using agitprop and toilet rhetoric to achieve political power.
It is a shameful act of desperation that the party in power should not be using, but you do it anyway and the result is that we look worse than they do now.
Whatta shame! You and those like you will never achieve anything of note by insulting the very people you absolutely need for your opportunities to come to fruition..
You have insulted me and essentially the bulk of the party. We have decided to fight back and by not succumbing to your insults and pigheaded attitudes, we have angered you....
Well..... too bad!
Try to get your positions accomplished with some other party......Oh wait....You tried that already....No?
My point is made....You either play nice in the political sandbox, or you get tossed over the side and into the weeds.
Your choice....not mine. decisions, actions and introspection is required for you, not me. I have simply informed you of the truth. You are free to ignore it as you have, or perhaps think a bit with your brain, rather than some other body part.
But one thing is absolutely certain......
You will never get your demands and positions implemented by continuing to do the things you do today. That is a promise. Ask Pat Buchanan if you need confirmation and verification of what I am trying to explain in every way the English language allows..
There is a slew of people who have come into this debate and are poisoning the perceptions of the voter aggregate against Republicans.
The reason is that few in the party have called them on their motivations, and many here have allowed this to happen because they placed the issue ahead of the character and good name we have tried so hard to establish.
No party in power can maintain this power unless good character and intentions are manifested.
We have been damaged by this, and so has this web site.
I will continue to speak to this as necessary, and I hope more FReepers get their voices heard on this issue.
We cannot continue as we have, without losing everything we worked so hard to achieve. Character and ethics should alway supercede the need for numbers on any advocacy attempt, and we have not done that.
It has been noticed by the general public, and it has damaged us all. You lie down with dogs, and you always get up with fleas.
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