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Bordering on Fraud (Thomas Sowell)
Townhall.com ^ | May 23, 2006 | Thomas Sowell

Posted on 05/23/2006 8:25:20 AM PDT by Gordongekko909

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To: zook
I would expect Sowell to make some argument about the folly of minimum wage and the *relative* unwillingness of Americans to do the work for the wages offered. That would have been consistent with most of his prior economic analysis.

I think that the market wage would be above the minimum wage without the illegal aliens bring it down.

161 posted on 05/23/2006 8:57:37 PM PDT by okiecon
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To: Thombo2

The politicans that cry it is impossible to deport 12 million illegals must be voted out in favor of politicans who know we can indeed deport 12 million illegals. Clearly, the word "can't" really means "won't."


162 posted on 05/23/2006 9:21:56 PM PDT by EverOnward
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To: MNJohnnie

Your "Bush has done more for conservatives with judges" reminds of the same arguments made when Souter and O'Conner were appointed.


163 posted on 05/23/2006 9:24:25 PM PDT by Fledermaus (If we can't enforce our borders and laws, why have either? Sorry Bush - it's Amnesty!)
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To: Don Corleone
Their agenda is also illegals sending U.S. money back home, propping up Mexico's economy.

Meanwhile, in little towns such as mine, businesses (and banks) are being hit with counterfeit $50s and $100s - the new bills!

164 posted on 05/23/2006 9:58:19 PM PDT by lakey
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To: zook
Sowell is usually so right on. Sad to see his reasoning fail here. If 24% of agriculture jobs are done by illegals, who presumably are paid lower wages than Americans, I would expect Sowell to make some argument about the folly of minimum wage and the *relative* unwillingness of Americans to do the work for the wages offered. That would have been consistent with most of his prior economic analysis.

Nothing wrong with his logic. If that 24% is gone the market will respond with higher wages until they have enough workers. I will pay $1.50 cents for a head of lettuce instead of $1.00 if that is what it takes.

165 posted on 05/23/2006 10:14:06 PM PDT by cpdiii (Socialism is popular with the ruling class. It gives legitimacy to tyranny and despotism.)
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To: ZULU
Thank God for Sowell, but the question not being asked is this: Can a First and Third world country coexist in the same geographical space? If not, then what?
166 posted on 05/23/2006 10:19:44 PM PDT by ashtanga
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To: IrishRainy
Dear Zook, you took the words right out of my mouth! Do the politicos think that the invaders will keep working for a pittance when they're granted amnesty? When price structures correct themselves, who will hire a Mexican who can't even read or write Spanish?
167 posted on 05/23/2006 10:24:26 PM PDT by ashtanga
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To: jan in Colorado

ping


168 posted on 05/23/2006 10:27:05 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
Tom Sowell(FOR PRESIDENT)

I wish he'd run so I could vote for him!

169 posted on 05/23/2006 10:28:35 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: Gordongekko909
Thomas Sowell ping.

Another insult to our intelligence is that amnesty is not amnesty if you call it something else.

It is either a green card, or in a brilliant epiphany, an orange card. Or another, there are so many colors to chose from. If this continues, they all need to go. I propose to those that understand this horrible little game and find this outrageous, that they commit to sending $5 to every House and Senate challenger, regardless of party affiliation, during the upcoming elections. Just $5, or $3, just help stop the constant reelection of R's and D's that care nothing about what you, the voting public demand.

We cycle through enough of those willing to do the "public service" and we may find an honest individual. That could take 200 years, but we keep trying.

Otherwise, it's Jeb Bush for Pres. of Mexico and Fox in the Cali Senate seat. You want that?

Well it certainly would be hilarious, if you think about it.

170 posted on 05/23/2006 10:54:45 PM PDT by daguberment (Jeb Bush for Mexican President, the family has done a superb job for the US)
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Comment #171 Removed by Moderator

To: Gordongekko909

Tom Sowell knocks one out of the park!! Common sense from Sowell. He cuts through the BS on immigration we get from the overpaid hacks in DC


172 posted on 05/24/2006 4:10:52 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: Cyropaedia

"That is a lie. "

My understanding is that prior to the late 1800s, one need only come to America and fill out a form. I believe we did essentially have open borders then. I don't advocate this today.

What's clear is that no one here really wants to discuss this. You and so many others are just knee jerkers when it comes to this topic. I take issue with Sowell, and the first thing out of so many poster's is crap like (paraphrasing here) "you're just like Michael Moore" or "you're a liar." Moreover, I don't think anyone recognized that my Prohibition analogy was not aimed at saying illegal immigration was exactly like illegal drinking. The point was that they both represent attempts to use pragmatic legislation to solve a problem with lawbreaking.

Reasonable people can disagree on this issue. Where are the reasonable people around here?


173 posted on 05/24/2006 5:54:35 AM PDT by zook
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To: IrishRainy

"If the latter, who will the employers hire then?"

My sense is that if they become legal, they'll have to be paid the min. wage for ag. work. If so, my guess is that employers will hire those they believe are most skilled, dependable, first to apply, etc., assuming the jobs are still worth paying wages for.


174 posted on 05/24/2006 6:00:49 AM PDT by zook
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To: cpdiii

Or, if employers find they can't afford those higher wages, the jobs will disappear or be done by machines.


175 posted on 05/24/2006 6:02:16 AM PDT by zook
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To: EverOnward

"Clearly, the word "can't"really means "won't"...."Exactly.I think the strategy behind all the defeatist talk(ie deportation is impossible,our economy depends on illegals,etc,etc)is simply an attempt to fragment the American public who overwhelmingly want illegals deported.


176 posted on 05/24/2006 7:46:37 AM PDT by Thombo2
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To: ashtanga

Great question.


177 posted on 05/24/2006 7:48:14 AM PDT by gogeo (The /sarc tag is a form of training wheels for those unable to discern intellectual subtlety.)
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To: zook
>>"That is a lie. "

My understanding is that prior to the late 1800s, one need only come to America and fill out a form. I believe we did essentially have open borders then. I don't advocate this today.

Again, it depended on "who" was filling out the form so to speak. For example, in the mid-1800's, the bulk of the Chinese immigrants that came over here to work on the railroads were essentially "owned" by the companies that sponsored them. They were basically indentured servants to their corporate sponsors (that makes their immigration experience not a very practical example for today). As the railroad system neared completion they started to curtail the flow of Chinese laborers to this country. There were issues with Irish Catholic immigrants coming to this country as well. Some groups were granted greater access than other groups due to demographic considerations. This is the way it was with every other sovereign nation.

What's clear is that no one here really wants to discuss this. You and so many others are just knee jerkers when it comes to this topic. I take issue with Sowell, and the first thing out of so many poster's is crap like (paraphrasing here) "you're just like Michael Moore" or "you're a liar." Moreover, I don't think anyone recognized that my Prohibition analogy was not aimed at saying illegal immigration was exactly like illegal drinking. The point was that they both represent attempts to use pragmatic legislation to solve a problem with lawbreaking.

We are not "knee-jerkers". We are simply pointing out the fallacies of your arguments. Comparing immigration to Prohibition was a poor analogy because you are simply comparing apples to oranges. Even you have begun to recognize this and are trying to slowly disengage yourself from your example ("...my Prohibition analogy was not aimed at saying illegal immigration was exactly like illegal drinking.").

The U.S. already takes in more immigrants every year than any other country in the world. That is more than enough . And over the past three decades we have not done it in a very responsible manner. That is why we ( the reform advocates) are now pushing for comprehensive immigration reform that does not include amnesty for millions of illegals. Why cannot afford to repeat the mistakes of the '86 legislation.

178 posted on 05/24/2006 8:21:08 AM PDT by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
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To: zook
Or, if employers find they can't afford those higher wages, the jobs will disappear or be done by machines.

YES!

179 posted on 05/24/2006 8:38:10 AM PDT by cpdiii (Socialism is popular with the ruling class. It gives legitimacy to tyranny and despotism.)
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To: Cyropaedia

"We are not "knee-jerkers". We are simply pointing out the fallacies of your arguments. "

Clearly your post here indicates you are not a knee-jerker. I have no problem with people pointing out flaws in my argument. But I've been called a liar, compared to Michael Moore, and had my intelligence questioned for simply raising points of contention with Sowell. The prohibition analogy was not about equating the intensity of the problem or the potential damage of the problem. It was about Sowell's implicit assertion that it was an "insult" to say we were incapable of deporting millions of illegal Mexicans.

That's not a "disengagement" -- it's a statement of fact about the intent of the analogy. The knee-jerkers read it differently, as an equation of the two kinds of illegal behaviors. If you think about it more, I'm sure you'll see this.

I do believe in comprehensive reform. But I lean toward President Bush's proposal as being more realistic and more in our national interest in the long run. I want border security strengthened, but I do not wish to see the razor wire fence envisioned by some people here.

One other thing that distinguishes me from a lot of people here--and this goes back to the Prohibition thing. I do not view the fact that these millions of Mexicans "broke our laws" by illegally crossing the border and working here as evidence of their moral or ethical character. Were I in their shoes, I would very likely try to do the same thing. This recognition man's desire to work, survive, and feed a family seemed to be (surprisingly) absent from Sowell's column.


180 posted on 05/24/2006 8:43:51 AM PDT by zook
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