Posted on 05/19/2006 6:12:50 PM PDT by nickcarraway
India has responded with diplomatic equanimity to Pope Benedict XVI's seemingly provocative remarks condemning attempts to ban religious conversion in certain states.
The pope had told India’s new ambassador to the Vatican, Amitava Tripathi, on Thursday that the country should "firmly reject" attempts "to legislate clearly discriminatory restrictions on the fundamental right to religious freedom". He had also taken note of the "disturbing signs of religious intolerance which had troubled some regions of the nation".
New Delhi responded on Friday with a statement, reiterating the constitutional "freedom of conscience" and the right to freely profess, practise and propagate religion. "It is acknowledged universally that India is a secular and democratic country where adherents of all faiths enjoy equal rights," said a foreign ministry spokesperson.
It was the pope's second declaration this week in defence of religious freedom in countries where Christians are a minority. In India, the statement comes in the backdrop of Rajasthan planning to become the sixth state to enact the anti-conversion law the pope was referring to. Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Arunachal Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, and Orissa already have laws that bar conversions but allow re-conversions to Hinduism. Jharkhand has declared its intention to enact a similar law.
The BJP-ruled Rajasthan, however, has not been able to convince Governor Pratibha Patil to give her assent to the Religious Conversion Bill. She returned the bill making a point similar to the one made by the pope -- that its provisions would affect the right to freedom of religion.
The BJP has often attributed attacks on Christian missionaries, including the murder of Graham Staines in Orissa, as reactions to their proselytising. During his recent Bharat Suraksha Yatra, BJP president Rajnath Singh had described proselytising "dangerous" and asked all BJP-ruled states to enact a similar law.
You wouldn't know freedom of religion or "personal choice" if it introduced itself to you as such. (Nor fascism, for that matter.)
I don't have problems with the cross, as long as you bear it where it is truly welcome and don't meddle in affairs none of your business.
Btw, nothing demonstrates "you don't get something for nothing" better than Christian missionary activity in India. But these souls just won't stay bought, will they?
'You wouldn't know freedom of religion or "personal choice" if it introduced itself to you as such. (Nor fascism, for that matter.)'
You wouldn't know it if it hit in your backside. Whats your point?
'don't meddle in affairs none of your business.'
Threats against its citizens is America's business and missionary welfare is the business of Christians.
'I don't have problems with the cross, as long as you bear it where it is truly welcome '
So Hindus have the right to practise what they want in America, but Christians dont have the same in India to you? Your ideology sounds like a terrorist ideology.
'Btw, nothing demonstrates "you don't get something for nothing" better than Christian missionary activity in India. But these souls just won't stay bought, will they?'
Can you be more clear? Whether you like it or not, Christian missionary activity is happening in India and the rest of the world. The fringe groups on the Indian political spectrum cannot prevent a welcomed activity.
'You wouldn't know freedom of religion or "personal choice" if it introduced itself to you as such. (Nor fascism, for that matter.)'
You wouldn't know it if it hit in your backside. Whats your point?
'don't meddle in affairs none of your business.'
Threats against its citizens is America's business and missionary welfare is the business of Christians.
'I don't have problems with the cross, as long as you bear it where it is truly welcome '
So Hindus have the right to practise what they want in America, but Christians dont have the same in India to you? Your ideology sounds like a terrorist ideology.
'Btw, nothing demonstrates "you don't get something for nothing" better than Christian missionary activity in India. But these souls just won't stay bought, will they?'
Can you be more clear? Whether you like it or not, Christian missionary activity is happening in India and the rest of the world. The fringe groups on the Indian political spectrum cannot prevent a welcomed activity.
'As I said I have no problems with Christianity or American values. When your Evangelical fascist brand of Christianity (which IMO is not the real face of majority Christianity) are on our turf (whether for the right or the wrong reasons) I don't require your license to voice my opinion. '
Oh boy.. you really dont have a CLUE about US politics, it is not surprising as you are NOT a American. Here is a little lesson.. Evangelical Christians, Southern Baptists etc are the core behind the Republican party base and the firm foundation behind it, a Huge number of Americans consider themselves to evangelical Christians and even President Bush is to himself considered to be an evangelical Christian. How do you think President Bush got elected? It was surely not the gays in San Francisco or the bay area that got him reelected. If you are against Evangelicals .. you are against President Bush and a vast number of Republicans/Americans, so you are not fooling any informed person here.
'. I dont hate missionaries, I oppose the ones that are involved in proselytization activities. '
Again you are contradicting yourself, missionaries are involved in proselytization activities, because thats wheir job is..it is like a plumber fixing the pipes.
'When they are on my turf, I consider my opinion (and the opinions of other fellow Indians) more important then that of a foreigner. '
This is not your TURF, this is FR - a american site.
'Congress ruled states where anti-conversion laws are put in place by non other than the Congress government'
Violence against missionaries happened under the national BJP govt and in States where BJP controls the Govt or is a major political force.
"He is a foreigner working working for a Jesuit organisation thats more than enough for me. "
Again your cluelessness is embarrasing, he is not a missionary period. The allegations were against missionaries and it is a lie as you cant prove it.
"It seems you haven't had an experience of an anti-Hindu threads as yet."
There are anti-Christian threads here, but i haven't seen any hate filled messages against Hindus in the same way your favourite site outlookindia had against Christians etc. I dont think Christians here attack a persons race.
'You haven't been here long enough to know what for or why I have criticized them. So keep your opinion to yourself. Please don't make gratuitous assumptions'
There are enough posts in this forum from you, to establish what you stand for.
'Your own ideology of hatred for Hindus and those you call as "upper cast" is good enough for an American version of Sangh parivar.'
I am against people who practise casteism and discriminate against their fellow humans, in the same way I am against Slave owners.. the upper caste have enough baggage in their past to be criicised, anyway I only criticised those who are behind those political groups. I do not in anyway support groups involved in violence like you do.
'But that constitutional right does not extend to foreigners or foreign missionaries. We are perfectly within our rights to restrict the freedom of foreign missionaries (especially those involved in active proselytization activities). We can not just harden their work environment but restrict them from operating altogether. In fact thats what we plan to do when we implement the anti-conversion laws. '
If they have valid visas to be in India, you have no right to threaten their safe working environment or try to harass them from doing their jobs, like i said this is a hallmark of a civilised society.
"When your fellow country men attempts to falsely accuse India for restricting religious freedom you would be naive not to expect those issues to come up."
Legislating against conversion is a religious freedom issue, there are no examples of Americans doing the same.
'Aww how many times I have heard of those kind of condescending remarks, "those Indians don't like us they only like our $$$, they care only for our money and our jobs". Your comments are so reflective of your attitude for Indians. '
Whats condascending about that? People want to do business, even Americans are like that when they are in India, to sell goods ands services to the Indian market.
'And if you have any doubts ask any Indian as to which is the party thats most pro-American and pro-Israel in the Indian polity. '
I am not deceived by their policies, they may be the most pro-American party in India and that is not saying much. Again it is a case of common causes uniting( the war on terror) rather than a real alliance of ideology.
'And BTW I don't consider your brand of Christianity as representative of the majority Christian values in US or representative of American culture. '
Since you are not an American, you are clueless about its value or the religion of its citizens, mainstream Christians are a big force in US politics and the Republican party.
'That does not mean I have to toe what in your opinion should be the standard partyline of FR. '
Read the mission statement of Fr, it is clear what they stand for.
That words mean something. And you throw them out without having a clue their meaning and effect. Nor do you care to understand how you use them. Words like these: fascist, liar, terrorist, even a word like "Christian."
Whether you like it or not, not every American nor every American Conservative agrees with the Church or Churches missionary activities.
You've nothing to worry about, really. If you are caught breaking India's anti-conversion laws you will be sent home for the disrespectful fool you are.
Some threat, that.
'And you throw them out without having a clue their meaning and effect'
Words have been used with respect to their meaning involved, lies and accusations have been hurled and some cases real violence has happened under the previous Indian Govt , anyone who supports violent tactics and groups are terrorist supporters. Since you seem to support such violent groups (or atleast hint at supporting it) and based on your own previous posts restricting individual freedoms, those words have been used and yep they are fairly applied.
'If you are caught breaking India's anti-conversion laws you will be sent home for the disrespectful fool you are'
Dont worry about India, America's freedom even allows a fascist fool like you to express his opinion however wrong it may be.
Your cave needs some light.
...those words have been used and yep they are fairly applied.
I'll wait on the judge, thanks:-)
'You gather from my posts that I favor restricting individual freedoms and am a terrorist supporter? '
The subtle hints that you leave in your posts seems to make it clear that you are a supporter of groups that indulge in violence or at the least sympathise with them. Get your hand out of the sand and deal with what you posted, rather than running away from it.
'I'll wait on the judge, thanks:-)'
What are you talking about? You need to get out more often :) .
'As I said I have no problems with Christianity or American values. When your Evangelical fascist brand of Christianity (which IMO is not the real face of majority Christianity) are on our turf (whether for the right or the wrong reasons) I don't require your license to voice my opinion. '
Oh boy.. you really dont have a CLUE about US politics, it is not surprising as you are NOT a American. Here is a little lesson.. Evangelical Christians, Southern Baptists etc are the core behind the Republican party base and the firm foundation behind it, a Huge number of Americans consider themselves to evangelical Christians and even President Bush is to himself considered to be an evangelical Christian. How do you think President Bush got elected? It was surely not the gays in San Francisco or the bay area that got him reelected. If you are against Evangelicals .. you are against President Bush and a vast number of Republicans/Americans, so you are not fooling any informed person here.
'. I dont hate missionaries, I oppose the ones that are involved in proselytization activities. '
Again you are contradicting yourself, missionaries are involved in proselytization activities, because thats wheir job is..it is like a plumber fixing the pipes.
It does not matter. Indian government decides what job is legal. You may argue the same for terrorists. Their job is to kill people. Its their job, so we should allow them to do that?
'When they are on my turf, I consider my opinion (and the opinions of other fellow Indians) more important then that of a foreigner. '
This is not your TURF, this is FR - a american site.
I am not talking about this site. I am talking about my country (my turf). And if posting on an American site is reserved only for Americans then foreigners wont have been allowed to sign up or allowed to post. And nobody appointed you the mod yet.
'Congress ruled states where anti-conversion laws are put in place by non other than the Congress government'
Violence against missionaries happened under the national BJP govt and in States where BJP controls the Govt or is a major political force.
On the contrary most religious violence happened in the South which weren't under the BJP. Regardless, I still condemn those violence and attacks on Christians. But Christians Missionaries are not without their share of guilt. They are very much involved in illegal activities and of course proselytization. The foreign Christians Missionaries have given a bad name to Christianity and the innocent Indian Christians are facing the brunt of it.
"He is a foreigner working working for a Jesuit organization thats more than enough for me. "
Again your cluelessness is embarrassing, he is not a missionary period. The allegations were against missionaries and it is a lie as you cant prove it.
Foreign Christian Missionaries have been involved in terrorism in the North East and this has been reported by non other than BBC. Pedophilia isn't the only crime that foreign Christian Missionaries are known for.
'You haven't been here long enough to know what for or why I have criticized them. So keep your opinion to yourself. Please don't make gratuitous assumptions'
There are enough posts in this forum from you, to establish what you stand for.
Like which posts? Newbie. you haven't been here long enough to know how much I have foul mouthed the VHP and the RSS. A lot of guys on my pinglist can attest to that. So keep your opinion to yourself.
'Your own ideology of hatred for Hindus and those you call as "upper cast" is good enough for an American version of Sangh parivar.'
I am against people who practice casteism and discriminate against their fellow humans, in the same way I am against Slave owners.. the upper caste have enough baggage in their past to be criicised, anyway I only criticised those who are behind those political groups. I do not in anyway support groups involved in violence like you do.
You ranted against those who you addressed as "upper casts". Your sweeping generalized hatred for "upper casts" is very much evident for all to see. And the fact that you chose to call them by their casts is evident enough of you own practice of castism and ethnic sectarianism. As I said you are just one Christian fascist and a fringe group and you don't represent the majority opinion of your own country and neither that of FR as I well know since I have been longer then you to figure that (although FR has a few fanatical jerks like you who keep signing up from time to time to FReeload).
'But that constitutional right does not extend to foreigners or foreign missionaries. We are perfectly within our rights to restrict the freedom of foreign missionaries (especially those involved in active proselytization activities). We can not just harden their work environment but restrict them from operating altogether. In fact thats what we plan to do when we implement the anti-conversion laws. '
If they have valid visas to be in India, you have no right to threaten their safe working environment or try to harass them from doing their jobs, like i said this is a hallmark of a civilised society.
There are different visas for different purposes. In the past many foreign missionaries have been deported for proselytizing on tourist visas. Even when there are valid visas you have to abide by the laws of the land, some months ago it was posted on FR that a foreign missionary in India was arrested for converting people in Chattisgarh (a state where the Congress party put a ban on conversion). The hallmark of a civilised society is that their people abide by the laws of the land (especially when on foreign soil) and not act like a bunch of rogues. It gives a bad name to their country and culture. When abroad, Indians try to do their best to be on their best behaviour, it reflects on their country and culture. I don't believe you will see Indians doing things in foreign soil that is hurtful to the local sensitivities , even though it may be perfectly legal to do so.
You deal with what I've posted. You're obviously the one having problems with it, and understanding.
Words bounce off you like rubber on concrete.
Bye.
'The Republican party headed by President Bush is a Christian conservative org not Christian Fascis'
A Christian fascist for supporting missionary activity? a clueless wonder like you has no idea really.
Stop running away from what you posted, you posted some hate filled messages against evangelicals - linked to some pretty nasty message site.
You hate Christians and their missionaries, that is the simple fact, dont run away from it.. in effect you hate Americans who consider themselves as evangelical christians.
When cornered with your particular ignorance on American politics and the Republican party support base, you run away and divert the topic. The Fact is you have a bin laden style hatred towards American conservatives.
Your hatred of Republicans is obvious, I dont believe for a moment you support them.
'On the contrary most religious violence happened in the South which weren't under the BJP.'
Proof? Gujarat, Orissa, Bihar are the some of the states involved and none of them are southern states.
'Regardless, I still condemn those violence and attacks on Christians. But Christians Missionaries are not without their share of guilt. They are very much involved in illegal activities and of course proselytization. The foreign Christians Missionaries have given a bad name to Christianity and the innocent Indian Christians are facing the brunt of it.'
This is again like a weasel cowardly Muslim style apologism when they say ' We condemn terrorism in all its forms that includes Israel attacks on palestinians', when some muslim nutcase blows himself up.
You either condemn the disgusting violence fully or you dont, your attempt to weasel out like a Muslim terror apologist in trying to excuse the violence is pathetic really and shows your true fascist roots.
'Foreign Christian Missionaries have been involved in terrorism in the North East and this has been reported by non other than BBC. Pedophilia isn't the only crime that foreign Christian Missionaries are known for.'
You provided zero evidence for paedophilic activity, it is obvious you have zero valid evidence for support for terrorism in the North east either. I am sure a Lying hate monger like you does not deal in facts or proof.
'. I am talking about my country (my turf). And if posting on an American site is reserved only for Americans then foreigners wont have been allowed to sign up or allowed to post. And nobody appointed you the mod yet.'
You said you dont care or want to hear what foreigners think, just reminded you this is FR.
'Like which posts? Newbie. you haven't been here long enough to know how much I have foul mouthed the VHP and the RSS.'
Looking at the past news threads you started and the links you gave to outlookindia message forums etc, is pretty much clear on what you stand for, You are a far right hindu nutcase jerk, it is pretty evident. I am not going to waste much effort on a useless activity to research on your posts since you started posting here. btw FR is an American site, if you have any self respect you should be aware of it.
'Even when there are valid visas you have to abide by the laws of the land, some months ago it was posted on FR that a foreign missionary in India was arrested for converting people in Chattisgarh (a state where the Congress party put a ban on conversion). '
The laws of the land have to be within reasonable human rights limits, even Taliban had its own laws does'nt mean they are right. Laws preventing Christians on legitimate legal visas going about their activities dont sound very decent and not even within its constitution limits.
What if Indian christian workers go abroad and get trained there and indulge in missionary activities when they are back in India, will you fascist fruitcakes still be against them and calling for their arrest etc ? It is evident you dont represent the majority opinion of the Indian society.
'You deal with what I've posted. You're obviously the one having problems with it, and understanding.
Words bounce off you like rubber on concrete.'
Try posting some coherent, logical ,sane arguments, then I can probably understand or do it better. yeah ,I cant understand a clown.
Bye.
Sorry for the late response (was out of India).
Legislating against conversion is a religious freedom issue, there are no examples of Americans doing the same.
This legislation isnt the first time or the only example where personal freedom have ben curbed. We have had plenty of anti-terrorist laws like TADA, POTA etc that undermined personal freedom. We are even considering uniform civil code which many argue as an encroachment on religious freedom. Everybody has some different definitions or ideas on what constitutes religious freedom
'Aww how many times I have heard of those kind of condescending remarks, "those Indians don't like us they only like our $$$, they care only for our money and our jobs". Your comments are so reflective of your attitude for Indians. '
Whats condascending about that? People want to do business, even Americans are like that when they are in India, to sell goods ands services to the Indian market.
You said :
" I am not so sure that the Hindu right wingers are such big supporters of Americas, they only are because of the Business and $$$ America provides to India and the jobs it creates. "
You sound like those whining anti- outsourcing leftist losers (and there are plenty here on FR) ranting against Indians "they dont like us but only our money". You act like America is doing charity in India by distributing American $$$. Lets get this straight. You do business here in India because you have more to gain from the cheap labour and the large pool of graduates, professional, scientists and engineers . You arnt doing any charity and there is no such thing in a globalised world as American $$$ and American jobs.
BTW US does more business with China and Europe (especially France & Germany) they are your supporters right?
'And if you have any doubts ask any Indian as to which is the party thats most pro-American and pro-Israel in the Indian polity. '
I am not deceived by their policies, they may be the most pro-American party in India and that is not saying much. Again it is a case of common causes uniting( the war on terror) rather than a real alliance of ideology.
Who cares about ideology? We have ours and you have yours. We wont adopt your ideology and we wont ask you to adopt ours. And if you think India and US cant be allies because we differ on ideology then maybe you should join the DU. The world runs on realpolitik, not on ideology.
'And BTW I don't consider your brand of Christianity as representative of the majority Christian values in US or representative of American culture. '
Since you are not an American, you are clueless about its value or the religion of its citizens, mainstream Christians are a big force in US politics and the Republican party.
On the contrary I have a better idea about American values and also what Christianity stands for and to know about it one doesnt have to be an American (there are thousands of Americans who themselves have no clue about American values and Christian conservatism). Christianity isnt the radical fundamentalism that you seem to represent. Perhaps you are the one who needs to get a clue.
'That does not mean I have to toe what in your opinion should be the standard partyline of FR. '
Read the mission statement of Fr, it is clear what they stand for.
Read it long before you even heard about FR.
'You sound like those whining anti- outsourcing leftist losers (and there are plenty here on FR) ranting against Indians "they dont like us but only our money". You act like America is doing charity in India by distributing American $$$. Lets get this straight. You do business here in India because you have more to gain from the cheap labour and the large pool of graduates, professional, scientists and engineers . You arnt doing any charity and there is no such thing in a globalised world as American $$$ and American jobs. '
Where was I against outsourcing and other business decisions? Outsourcing jobs to THIRD world countries is not exactly my concern . You made the point exactly.. it is CHEAP labour.
'BTW US does more business with China and Europe (especially France & Germany) they are your supporters right?'
On a diplomatic front, there is not much difference between Europe and India. Atleast Europe supported operations in Afghanistan and India did not.
'On the contrary I have a better idea about American values and also what Christianity stands for and to know about it one doesnt have to be an American (there are thousands of Americans who themselves have no clue about American values and Christian conservatism). Christianity isnt the radical fundamentalism that you seem to represent. Perhaps you are the one who needs to get a clue'
You are absolutely CLUELESS and for the umpteenth time you are NOT American, what you you know about American values in the same way Bin laden does ( no wonder you have the same moniker as a terrorist) , a Fascist nutcase bigot Foreigner like you has no idea on what Christian values and American society, apart from the hate literature you read on those radical sites.
'Read it long before you even heard about FR.'
Then read it again , especially the part about values, religion , morality which the site founder mentions, then try to understand it if you can,
'Christian fascists are those who are involved in terrorist activities (and other crimes like pedophillia). If you are a supporter of any of these then you are a Christian Fascist. As simple as that..'
Any proof again about Paedophilia, dont think so?. Provide the proof or shut up. As for child abuse issues, your country where child marriages, brides, child bondage labour and slavery is widely prevalent sure is an expert on such abuse issues.
''
Dont just throw baseless accusations. Prove it.'
The proof is in your posts, the links you provided and your tactic support for violence against Christian missionaries, you have zilch in common with Republicans and probably more in common with Clinton and Micheal moore.
'Bombay riots post Babri Mosque demolition happend when Congress was in the center as well as in the state. Anti-Sikh riots happend under the Congress. Kashmir ethnic clensing happened under the Congress (in center) and National Conference in state. Bihar and Orissa was never rules by the BJP'
Dont divert the topic.. the issue is violence against missionaries and you claimed it happened in Southern states. When cornered with facts, you ran away from your LIE, so accept it you lied when you said it happened in southern states.
As for the Southern states, TamilNadu has repealed the anti-Conversion law
http://www.newkerala.com/news3.php?action=fullnews&id=2882
So oh poor thing, looks the kind of ideology spewed by you is very much in the minority.
'And what about the Christian terrorist attacks on Hindus in North East? I never ever heard as much as a tiny little excuse for an aoplogy for the wanton killings of innocent Hindus from you kind of Christian fundies. '
I have never supported any terrorist acts or violence against innocent people , I dont support violence against Hindus or anyone by others in the name of religion, I am not in a supporter of terrorist attacks like you and a weasel Coward like you are.
The seperatist movements in the North east have more to do with politics than religion, there are seperatist movements in the North east like Assam, tripura, Meghalaya etc and Nagaland are christian based and others not - example of Assam. Years of neglect by Indian central govt, corruption and invasion of the north east and its culture by people from bangladesh is behind these separtists. Take your lies, elsewhere.
'Anti-coversion laws were enacted in many states long before the BJP even ame into existance. On the issue of anti -conversion bill which is about to be passed I am with the majority. '
Oh boy.. you are wrong again , the TN example provided shows it is not the majority. Fascist movements supported by people like you and your fellow Indian pals here are not popular in democratic countries.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.