Pope asks India not to ban religious conversions

Hindustan Times ^ | May 20, 2006

[nickcarraway]

India has responded with diplomatic equanimity to Pope Benedict XVI's seemingly provocative remarks condemning attempts to ban religious conversion in certain states.

The pope had told India’s new ambassador to the Vatican, Amitava Tripathi, on Thursday that the country should "firmly reject" attempts "to legislate clearly discriminatory restrictions on the fundamental right to religious freedom". He had also taken note of the "disturbing signs of religious intolerance which had troubled some regions of the nation".

New Delhi responded on Friday with a statement, reiterating the constitutional "freedom of conscience" and the right to freely profess, practise and propagate religion. "It is acknowledged universally that India is a secular and democratic country where adherents of all faiths enjoy equal rights," said a foreign ministry spokesperson.

It was the pope's second declaration this week in defence of religious freedom in countries where Christians are a minority. In India, the statement comes in the backdrop of Rajasthan planning to become the sixth state to enact the anti-conversion law the pope was referring to. Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Arunachal Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, and Orissa already have laws that bar conversions but allow re-conversions to Hinduism. Jharkhand has declared its intention to enact a similar law.

The BJP-ruled Rajasthan, however, has not been able to convince Governor Pratibha Patil to give her assent to the Religious Conversion Bill. She returned the bill making a point similar to the one made by the pope -- that its provisions would affect the right to freedom of religion.

The BJP has often attributed attacks on Christian missionaries, including the murder of Graham Staines in Orissa, as reactions to their proselytising. During his recent Bharat Suraksha Yatra, BJP president Rajnath Singh had described proselytising "dangerous" and asked all BJP-ruled states to enact a similar law.

[AmishDude]

You seem to be conflating conversion with prosthelization.

[Gengis Khan]

First tell me what would you call this one?
http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html

Would you call it fraud, force, blackmail or is it perfectly ok with you?

[Cronos]

The pope's inteference in our internal matter was definitely uncalled for ,he seems to have forgotten the fact that india is a soverign democracy

The Pope was commenting -- he's free to do so. As religious head he is fre to comment -- the Dalai Lama can do so too -- as long as he doesn't stir hatred, and that's NOT what he did. Did he "interfere" in India's internal affairs -- NO! -- just as the Pope did not "interfere" in America's internal matters when he commented on the war in Iraq. We may not like what he says, but he's free to say it.

[Cronos]

The Pope should first apologise for the brutal inquisition in Goa.

The Papacy has apologized for the excesses of the inquisition. But let's see, should the Hindu leaders apologize for Shivaji's destruction of Churchs in Bombay and Goa? I think the whole idea is to be buried int he past. you're talking about the 16th century. Did anything like this happen in the past 100/200 years? No. Would such an action (either by Christians or Hindus) happen again? No.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You wrote: "I gave the example of giving uneducated, superstitious people Tylenol for a headache, then telling them Jesus made the headache go away."

Do you have any evidence of this actually happening? Catholic Relief Services, which is one of the biggest and most effective relief and development agencies globally, specifically prohibits its staff and cooperating agencies from using humanitarian aid as a vehicle for recruitment to the Catholic faith.

It's fruitless and speculative to talk about how fraud "can" occur. If it does occur, it should be curtailed by law. Fraud and deception, bribery and the promise of material payoff, force and the threat of force: these are, and ought to be prohibited. Surely Pope Benedict would not disagree.

But deception, bribery and force are not part of normal, peaceable mission activities. Works of Mercy and educational outreach do not constitute bribery, as long as Hindus can benefit from it without first becoming Catholics.

[Cronos]

"The Pope's remark on religious freedom is not relevant to India. There is much more freedom here than in other countries. Freedom of religion does not mean conversions by coercion and allurements," BJP spokesman Prakash Javadekar said. "The pontiff's remarks were "irrelevant and exposed ignorance about Indian traditions and laws," he added.

And Javadekar is free to say what HE wants to say...except for the next statemetn which is hilarious and shows his ignorance <>

[Cronos]

on the site of the Golden Temple.

Exactly -- the Vatican is smaller than the size of the great Hindu temple complexes like in Southern India. NO other religious monument shoudl be built INSIDE those complexes (though they can be build outside the complex in the city). Similarly, no temple should be built inside the Vatican but Hindus are free to do so in the larger city of Rome.

[Cronos]

In at least one part of India (north or northeast), even Christian guerrilla groups have massacred villagers who refused to convert.

Crap -- don't spread falsehoods. Give proof of this.

[Gengis Khan]

Before I define my terms first tell me if this kind of behaviour according to you is alright?
http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html

[Cronos]

The Russian government have actually razed temples in Moscow for "want of land" and haven't reconstructed them elsewhere as promised. Moreover the Hindus there are also regularly subjected to racial assaults.

Russians are Eastern Orthodox Christians and they'd laugh if you said that they follow the Pope's comments -- they may listen, but they follow the Patriarch of Moscow

[Gengis Khan]

familyop is talking about these articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/717775.stm
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=144840

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm


http://www.christianaggression.org/

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1060546733&type=news

http://www.christianaggression.org/features_nlft.php

http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?id=1060546733&type=news

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=144840

http://www.hindunet.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=50359&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3042303.stm

http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/news/newsarticle011005.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/899422.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/758342.stm

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT.HTM
http://indpride.com/churchbacksterrorism.html

http://www.freeindiamedia.com/current_affairs/21_july_current_affairs.htm

[Cronos]

However, the church does send out a message of intolerance, and proselytisation much in the same manner that the mosque does.

How??? The Church repeats that it does nto beleive that there is any other way to God but through the Church. However, it also believes that man has the right to choose his path.

[Cronos]

I dont remember Muslim Imams from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia complaining about the lack of religious freedom in India or demanding the legal right to convert Hindus.

BEcause the Muslims won't talk to you to try and convert you --- they'll hold a sword to your neck. The Christian will go away if you say you don't want to listen, but the Muslim will slice your throat with that rusty sword and leave you to bleed to death. The Christian will say that you can only be saved through Christ, but you have been given the gift by God to Choose (and that choice could be to reject the Christian's words), but the muslim will say that since you reject Allah, youmust be destroyed, your wife raped and your family forcibly converted. And that is what is going through their minds NOW.

do you get the difference?

[Mrs. Don-o]

First, "conversions" don't have legal standing, one way or the other, in Western countries.
"If they don't then I wonder why the Pope demands a legal/constitutional right to convert."

Maybe because he wants people to be free to convert, regardless of legal standing?

What does this "legal standing" amount to, anyway? Is it that in some countries (Italy? or Russia?), you can't vote, or hold office, or get a passport, or immigrate, or emigrate, or teach in a public school or something, if you don't have the "right" religious credentials?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the U.S. Census doesn't list religious affiliation, does it? And if they do in other countries, then --- as I said --- for what purpose?

[Gengis Khan]

I am not much of a supporter of the BJP but in this case Prakash Javadekar is dead right and makes more sense then the Pope.

The Pope's clear agenda is to Evangelize India by whatever means possible and dont act like the Christians are all so very innocent.

[edsheppa]

Anti-conversion laws do not disallow a person to change his or her religion ... they disallow active proselytisation,

Oh, I see, they're only a restriction on free speech. Well, that's all right then.

[Cronos]

Perhaps im ignorant, but it does seem to me (from what I have seen of churches in the few (catholic) christian dominated areas in India), that the (catholic) church does very much behave in a radical and communal fashion!

Really? Like parts of Goa or Maharashtra? Nothing what you state happens there. To poitn out things happening inthe North-East shows ignorance ont he majestical diversity fo India -- the North-Easterners have a distinct culture from, say Delhities. But then, even Malayalees ahve a distinct culture from Delhities (sorry, I just think Delhi dudes are ruuuude!) and this was exacerbated by the FACT that the central government ignored the N-E for a long, loong time, causing them to think they WERE different.

But NOW, India's reaching out to its NE -- and one former guerilla group, the Bodos are now a political party IN POWER in Assam. Teh regional differences are the cause of the problems in the NE -- and that is also slowly dying down because India is becoming more culturaly inclusive -- even the South Indians no longer have a strong anti-Hindi drive, they want to live and let live (and also the South and west are doing far better than the North!)

[Cronos]

One guy said missionaries will give a Tylenol to some poor, uneducated guy who was complaining of a headache, then when the headache goes away, they tell him Jesus cured it, so he converts.

That happens inthe US also! What's to stop that poor schmuck from converteing back the next day?? Nothing. I think fooling the poor guy is wrong, but how do you prove such a thing? And even if you do prove it, has the poor guy really lost anything? Well, besides the headache...

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Also a Hindu temple was firebombed in Matawan, New Jersey in 2001. In 2003 another Hindu Temple in Ashland was vandalized spray painted with hate messages."

This is illegal, right? The perps will be caught, tried, and punished, right? Firebombing and vandalizing other people's houses of worship is deplored --- even forbidden --- by all the rest of the religions and their leadership, right?

So what is the point? Nobody is denying that there are dreelance a$$holes around that do despicable things. I very much doubt that it was carried out by the Knights of Columbus.

[Gengis Khan]

"Maybe because he wants people to be free to convert, regardless of legal standing?"

In India they would still be free to convert even with the anti-conversion laws enforced. The laws are meant to stop organized proselytization activity.

"What does this "legal standing" amount to, anyway? Is it that in some countries (Italy? or Russia?), you can't vote, or hold office, or get a passport, or immigrate, or emigrate, or teach in a public school or something, if you don't have the "right" religious credentials?"

It may not personally affect anyone so much especially the economically influencial Indians but morally it still amounts to unequal treatment. That you can deny. Just because you are not an Hindu and you are not sensitive to such issues that does not mean Hindus too will have none.