Posted on 05/10/2006 1:48:26 AM PDT by M. Thatcher
U.S. Customs and Border Protection is refuting a Daily Bulletin report that the U.S. Border Patrol provided information to the Mexican government about the whereabouts of civilian border watch groups.
Read the disputed article: U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols
See the Mexican Government Web page: www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte3
"Today's report by the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin, `U.S. tipping Mexico to Minuteman patrols,' is inaccurate," read the statement issued Tuesday evening. "Border Patrol does not report activity by civilian, non-law enforcement groups to the government of Mexico."
Kristi Clemens, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security and Customs and Border Protection, would not elaborate on the agency's statement other than to say the U.S. gives information to Mexican officials under the rules of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, which provides foreign nationals being detained by a government the right to consular access.
"This is the same agreement that protects United States citizens when they travel to foreign countries," according to the statement.
An August 2005 document, "Third Report on the Activities of Vigilantes" -- posted on Mexico's Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site -- suggests U.S. officials were giving out more details than required by the Vienna Convention. Part of that information was the location of U.S. citizens participating in volunteer border patrols.
The Daily Bulletin reported on the contents of that document and two others on the Mexican Web site in a story published in Tuesday's editions.
Mexican consulates also went beyond the boundaries of the Vienna Convention, asking U.S. Border Patrol officials to provide them with information on "vigilantes" operating along the U.S. border, according to the August 2005 document.
Some of the information cited in the Mexican document originally was given only to U.S. Border Patrol and law enforcement officials, border watch organizers said.
"Nobody but law enforcement and Border Patrol knew where we were at," said Andy Ramirez, chairman of the Chino-based nonprofit group Friends of the Border Patrol. "So how is our base address on a Mexican government document dated last August? Nobody, not even media, had this information."
Ramirez said he revealed the location of his base camp only to local and federal officials. The Mexican document gives the exact location of his group's site, which was on private property near San Diego.
According to Ramirez, the group had no encounters at that site with undocumented migrants, which would have been the only cause for that information to be revealed under the Vienna Convention.
On Monday, Mario Martinez, a U.S. Customs and Border spokesman, told the Daily Bulletin that when illegal immigrants are apprehended in the U.S., they have the right, under the Convention, to be represented by their country's consulate office and to information regarding their apprehension.
Information contained in a Border Patrol agent's field report, which is filed when a person is caught, would reveal the location of the detainee and therefore the area where the volunteer group is operating, Martinez said.
Martinez did not deny that information on the border volunteers was being shared with the Mexican government. He added that the group's whereabouts also were identified by numerous media outlets.
However, the Mexican report also contains specific information on civilian groups operating much farther inside the United States.
For example, the document notes that 50 Minuteman volunteers work in Chicago, focusing mainly on employers who hire illegal immigrants.
Minuteman volunteers said specific information -- such as the number of volunteers and their plans -- could have been provided only by law enforcement officials at that time. The document credits the various Mexican consul general offices in the U.S. with providing the information to the Mexican Foreign Secretary for the reports.
"How did they know the number of volunteers in Chicago? And why should the Mexican government care?" asked Connie Hair, spokeswoman for the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps in Washington, D.C.
The three reports on the Mexican Web site documented the activities of the civilian groups based on concerns the Mexican government had about volunteer patrols on the border in 2005, said Rafael Laveaga, spokesman for the Mexican Embassy in Washington, D.C.
"The Border Patrol does not report activity of the Minutemen to the Mexican consulate," Laveaga said. "But it's all a matter of perception. If a migrant requests to have counsel, which is their right under the Vienna Convention, then the information is provided to the counsel."
Throughout the Mexican government's reports on "vigilantes," it is noted that Mexican consulates in the U.S. contacted Border Patrol officials seeking U.S. cooperation in reporting instances of civilians monitoring the border. Among such requests:
The Mexican consul in Presidio, Texas, asked the Marfa Sector's Border Patrol chief to alert them if the U.S. detected any volunteer activity.
In Phoenix, consulate officials asked the Border Patrol to notify them if civilian groups apprehended any undocumented migrants so consulate representatives could interview them.
In San Diego, the document referred to a meeting with Border Patrol Chief Darryl Griffen stating that "Mr. Griffen reiterated to the undersecretary his promise to notify the General Consul right away when the vigilantes detain or participate in the detention of any undocumented migrant."
"It appears the border reports are the tip of the iceberg," said Chris Simcox, founder of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, which began patrolling the border last April.
Such requests from Mexico, and U.S. officials acquiescing to them, are not new, say Border Patrol agents.
Scott James, a former Tucson agent, resigned after eight years of service in February, citing a lack of support for agents by the Department of Homeland Security.
He said that U.S. Border Patrol officials provided office space inside their headquarters to Mexican consulate officials, allowed the consulate to dictate the agents' activities, and gave the consulate information on ongoing investigations.
Such courtesies were not extended to consulate offices of other countries, James said.
Sara A. Carter can be reached by e-mail at sara.carteror by phone at (909) 483-8552.
No. I don't read posts that I know in advance as FOS.
No, it isn't. Punditry may be informed and analytical, but it tends to sell better to many audiences with hyperbole-to-fact rations exceeding unity by a wide margin.
Does that include 95% of this thread?
Is it just me, or is the slobbering over a MARRIED woman's pictures here on Free Republic a tad unseemly?
Hows that quote search going?
No, but I've cerainly been here long enough to know who to read and who to scroll past.
Take most 1000+ posts-in-one-day threads with grains of salt.
That's our Howlin!
Never let a snappy reply get bogged down in objectively verifiable truth! You can see how successful she is with that "scrolling" plan.
It's like a diva trying to ignore a mirror.
I see the problem.
I said that Michelle Malkin's vetting policy boils down to accepting whatever the Minuteman pass to her, and that she does so without reading the documentation that allegedly supports their claims. Unfortunately, I made the absolutely horrid blunder of leaving some quotes in before pressing the Post button.
Now, yes, a certain species of pedantic jerk that is gifted with far more education than good sense will make much of my misusing quotes. Boo-f***ing-hoo. I f***ed up. Unlike Michelle, I accept that I f***ed up, admit it, and continue on.
Now that that is out of the way, on to the real purpose of this discussion.
You see, unlike Michelle, I actually read Sara Carter's report carefully, and read the documents cited therein. The claims made by the Minutemen do not stand up to scrutiny. The documents make it clear that the consular officials have access to information on arrests, including the names of all participants (this includes arresting officers/citizens, and witness statements). This is nothing new. They've always had that access. It's part of any consular official's job, anywhere in the world.
I knew this because of my background. You see, I have had to arrest foreign nationals as a cop, so I am familiar with consular notification requirements. And, yes, if the Minutemen give their information to the Border Patrol, and also state that they observed someone crossing the border at location X and time Y, then that information will be in the arrest report. If they give any witness statements, those documents are also available to consular officials.
Michelle ignored all of those facts to jump to her desired conclusion, justify her use of purple prose, and thus continue to play to her chosen audience.
Said grain of salt should be roughly the size of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs...
Have you been corresponding with Sara Carter like Michelle has?
I understand your frustration. It's a bitch having someone hold your feet to the fire as close as you want to hold others.
Michelle ignored all of those facts to jump to her desired conclusion, justify her use of purple prose, and thus continue to play to her chosen audience.
Coming from you, this is rich.
Hey, wait a minute...Geneva Convention? Isn't that the treaty the dictates how enemy combatants are to be treated during war time? I thought we weren't being invaded by Mexico. That's what I keep being told. Hmmmm....
Hey, I guess I made the cut.
In one direction only--I sent an email to Ms. Carter detailing exactly what the documents referred to, complete with quotations from and links to the relevant treaties, and how those treaties get implemented.
I have received no response.
Maybe she's too busy talking to important folks like Ms. Malkin to examine facts.
"What is truly amazing is that the very people who claim to despise Mexico are now quoting heavily from a Mexican web site and taking it as absolute fact."
Ironic isn't it? Kinda like the dems that think we should bow down and worship the 7 Generals that slam Rummy, but think that General Hayden isn't qualified to run the CIA. Two-faced hypocrits.
To say the least.
Oh, I don't know. I hear that is pretty standard treatment for "Keepers Of Odd Knowledge" and outhouse attorneys. And for sure, your ability to filter out all the interlocking evidence in her report with the single exception of the one detail you have experience with definitely puts you in one of those categories.
The "interlocking evidence" all related to consular reporting, which is tied to consular treaties that we have ratified and are thus the supreme law of the land along with the Constitution. Amazing that she ignored that stuff, eh? I guess it must be too dry and dull to get a "BUSH IS EVIL INCARNATE" rant out of.
with the single exception of the one detail you have experience with definitely puts you in one of those categories.
Some people (you in particular and Ms. Carter, apparently) have a real problem when they learn that they don't know what they're talking about.
You can keep saying it, but you can't make it true. "Consular reporting" has become your magic wand. You seem to think you can make everything else disappear by using it as your rubric.
Kind of like the official line.
Unfortunately, the official line isn't tying up all the loose ends. You may be an expert in arithmetic, but you're out of your depth when you start claiming "you can't do math with letters instead of numbers."
Nobody can force you to draw reasonable inferences from less than comprehensive evidence, but neither can you prevent thinking people from drawing inferences by disdaining with less than comprehensive evidence.
I may not know what I'm talking about, but you certainly haven't demonstrated it.
It's not like one can cite an official form that gets filled out when a government agency decides to engage in malfeasance.
Finally, I'm beginning to have serious questions as to whether your tangential experience in this area has left you "invincibly ignorant" for the purpose of assimilating new information.
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