Posted on 05/08/2006 7:04:26 PM PDT by mwfsu84
If I had told you on 9/11/2001 that we'd go four and half years and counting without another terrorist attack on US soil, would you have believed me?
If I had told you that US-led forces would secure Afghanistan in just a few months...something the Soviets couldn't accomplish in ten years...would you have thought I was crazy?
If I had told you that Saddam was gone, that Khadaffy had renounced terrorism, and that Iraq was on the verge of becoming the second democracy in the Middle East, would have thought I was on medication?
Sometimes in our disappointment of this administration, we often forget some of the positives. The economy is strong. More Americans are homeowners. With tax cuts, we're spending less time working for Uncle Sam.
And if you take those benefits for granted, just imagine how much different things would be under a President Al Gore.
So if the president's stance on immigration and spending upset you - and they do upset me - what are you going to do about it? Stay at home? Nothing could be worse for conservativism. Your non-support will usher in more immigrants, higher taxes, and weaker national security.
If the GOP loses Congress, George W. Bush will be removed from office. Nothing would embolden terrorists more. How can we be counted on to wage an effective war when we can't even decide who our enemy is?
George W. Bush isn't the enemy. But that's exactly the message conservatives will send to the world if they stay at home this November.
If you're upset with W. on immigration - write him, write a Republican Congressman, let him know how you feel. It was conservatives who got Bush to change his mind on Harriet Meirs.
I promise you, a Democratic Congress won't be nearly as responsive to your needs.
Because everyone knows that this is a forum devoted to supporting the Republican Party no matter what. No, wait, it ISN'T that kind of forum. In fact, I do believe that its mission statement is:
Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America.
So, apparently you have this forum confused with one that is designed to champion causes which further Republican Partyism in America.
You have no clue to my motives. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm explaining how the Republican party set themselves up to lose.
I guess you missed the millions of criminals and their accomplices marching in our streets, organized by various marxist organizations, spewing hatred at conservatives, President Bush, and Republicans. I guess you've missed the nexus between the organizations who organized those marches and those who are organizing the leftist, anti-war movement which is actually having some success at losing the war at home. maybe you're unaware that the illegal aliens, according to a recent statement by Rep. Steve King (R-IA) are responsible for the deaths of over 8,000 Americans per year and commit sexual crimes against over 3,000 American children per year. That's around 40,000 American deaths since the year 2000, and 15,000 American children who have had their innocence stolen from them. Maybe you missed the events of 9/11 and haven't made the connection between the fact that there are still terrorists who want to kill us and our borders are not secure enough to slow any of them down. But hey, that most recent tax cut sure meant a heck of lot to me. You?
"I don't take the border conservatives seriously?
I am a border conservative. Many of the critiques of the agitprop you see around here also are border conservatives.
It's not a contradiction to be for border control and against border propaganda.
You should take seriously the damage border agitprop can do to our cause."
Then I'm flummoxed.
If you get a robust fence and patrols, and amnesty is taken off the agenda this year, will you or won't you vote for the Republicans in the Fall?
I think most border conservatives will, because then you'll have something to protect. Right now you've got nothing, nil, nada, zilch, empty set from the Republicans. If they give you the biggest thing: an effective fence, and they decouple that from amnesty, won't that be enough of a victory to keep you in the camp (or bring you back into it), for this November?
I think it will be for nearly all Border Conservatives. A party is like a flying wedge - there's a whole gaggle of geese with different interests, all honking at once - the leadership has to keep the wedge pointed in a general direction, and keep the wings of the wedge from flying off. A few months ago, it was the pro-lifers who were waving the bloody shirt during the Miers crisis. They were completely serious, and the President adjusted and gave them Alito. He didn't strike down Roe v. Wade or provoke a constitutional crisis; he just gave them a judge. And that was enough to bring the pro-lifers back into the formation, relieved that their political world didn't end.
I've got to believe that it's the same way with the Border conservatives. You guys are emaciated. You've got nothin', and you don't look to be getting anything either. No wonder many of you are going to walk. And if you do, we all lose - the party collapses electorally. So we've got to give you something, something big and important. We CAN'T give you everything you want, for at least two reasons: (1) We don't have enough power, and (2) a lot of us don't AGREE with everything you want. Mass deportations? That's too much. Moderate Republicans will start getting stubborn if the party goes that far.
But a FENCE and border enforcement, and NOT giving amnesty?
Well, that's doable. That doesn't shock anybody's conscience. That's an Alito move: a real victory for you, without losing some other wing of the party.
I don't know who would be putting out agitprop. The Border conservatives I hear are pretty sincere. Well, so am I. I don't like the idea of turning loose the cops to rip every illegal out of the country, because I think illegals are hardworking people who do a lot of necessary jobs, I think it's cruel, and I think that turning loose the authorities to perform an anal exam on private business in the USA is a bad idea, even if it is to enforce the immigration laws. Also, I think that Latinos help move the abortion issue towards abolition much more rapidly than native-born whites and blacks do. That's not agitprop - those are genuine moral, political and ethical considerations that are every bit as sincere as yours. I am not willing to give you everything you want on the border, and if things go so far as mass investigations of Americans to see who has ever hired an illegal, and mass deportations of illegals, well, then I am headed for the exit myself.
So, we can't come to FULL agreement on this issue, because we have different moral views of the world.
BUT we can still save the Republican Party, because I understand your concerns and see your fears. And I see that the flood across the border has to be stopped. I think that if we cut that flow with the Fence you want, that over time the situation will right itself such that you will find it tolerable. And I think that if you've got a Fence to PROTECT, a real GAIN on your issue from the Republicans, which the Democrats will take away, you'll vote GOP and the Party will be saved and move forward on all the other fronts, many of which I care about more.
So there's a balancing act, political and moral, going on here. Where's the agitprop? I just don't see it.
The sad truth is that in many races this year conservatives hav eno one to vote for, The republican is almost if not as liberal as the rat. I will of course vote for conservatives where I can but nothing for a rino. Voting for a rino because he is hair less liberal then a rat is like thinking someone for hitting you with their fists instead of a bat. And if you are so worried about losin, as you should be, it might be a good idea to urge our leaders to start listening to the base for a change.
I was fairly disgusted by the whining over the President's "spending". There was no discussion over good spending versus bad. People just saw this matter in a black/white issue which revealed their lack of knowledge on the subject.
President Bush knows how the economy works. The potshotters - some do too. And then there are others, who are clueless about how to reduce over all spending. Sometimes you have to put out a dime in order to save a thousand later on.
I'm explaining how the Republican party set themselves up to lose.
In your opinion.
We disagree.
You're complete inability to grasp sarcasm - or to even read few posts up a thread to put my statement into context - is stunning. I'll stay right here, thanks.
No? But she has used about every name in the book to attack conservatives in this thread. Talk about trolling for a flamewar.
If I've read through all the posts correctly, I think you are both on the same page. Say hey to each other.
"Just as long as the fence people understood, clearly, that there would be an expansion of the guest worker program on the table next year, as well as some path to citizenship for some or most of those already here."
Amnesty, guest worker, etc. would all be on the table for discussion in the next Congress, sure. Whether any of those things would actually get THROUGH the next Congress would be a future political fight whose outcome is not currently knowable.
Probably the best way to do it for everybody is to get the fence under construction THIS year. That saves the GOP in November.
Then, next year, don't focus on guest worker, which really undermines the fence by bringing more and more in. Instead, focus on amnesty for those already here (since more can't come in significant numbers once the fence is up). Make it a humanitarian and Christian-focused issue. And get the organizers at work in the Latino community to talk about family values and the widespread Latino opposition to abortion. Prepare the field so that social conservatives can see political value in slowly allowing Hispanics already here to be regularized, how this won't simply mean adding 18 million liberal welfare Democrats to the rolls. With political organization among the Hispanics, make it a quid pro quo arrangement.
Then you can get a slow amnesty going without blowing up the party again.
And then just let economics run its course. The economy is near full employment. There are plenty of jobs to do. An effective fence will start to pinch the labor market. That will make the existing unemployed, such as there are, more employable, and stabilize the lot of the low-skilled workers - Latino competition will die away. Regularization will make the Hispanics here eligible for labor protections, and will further press the labor market. Within a few years, a growing economy and the lack of labor will have driven up the price of many things, and employment will be so plentiful and low skilled workers so secure, that the political pressure to allow more Latino immigration for American economic reasons will become overwhelming. Then you can get a guest worker program. Guest worker is an issue that should be allowed to ripen and become obvious. Trying to grasp that fruit now will just blow up the party.
Don't push the river, it'll flow by itself.
You just don't get it, do ya?
It won't matter who's in office if this nation is half-Mexican in 20 years!
HELLO!! McFly!!!
Don't be so damned shortsighted. If you think that the onslaught of illegals is gonna end anytime soon with people like Bush in office, you're cracked!
See, for people like me it transcends politics. For people like you, it's all about the politics. While you're busy worrying about what meals are being served and to whom on the luxury decks, myself and others are conccerned about who's going to fix the 20' gash that's taking on water at a rate that'll sink this ship within our lifetimes.
I know, I know, it can never happen to America. Spare me! I realize we're exempt from every malady that ever existed simply by virtue of being "the United States."
The GOP has been in full control in this nation for what, pushing 6 years now, and with both houses for what, over a decade now. Yet, this nation politically, not at the grass roots level, keeps on getting more and more liberal.
When you figure out why then come back and let's argue. Meanwhile, I'm voting for the first person, besides a Dim, whom I'll never vote for again, that says and has credibility that they'll stop the Mexican invasion!
That's who's getting my vote! What the hell good are tax cuts, right now Bush's biggest legacy after trying to neuter the USSC while failing at that (Miers), if in ten years this entire nation gets "undone" due to us standing around while half of Mexico finds its way in and forever alters our nation, and it wouldn't be for the better, believe me!
They should be. Just like any other act of murder. From your comment, maybe I misunderstand it, but can I assume that you're pro-abortion - what some call "pro-choice"?
And in all fairness, I think Badnarik and Peroutka would have to be tracking at at least 1% of the vote to merit the bandwidth.
Yes, onyx, I'm aware that the liberal elitists in the party absolutely hated Ronald Reagan and were mortified when he won the nomination. They even tried to establish a co-presidency where he would have had to share his duties with Rockefeller, leaving Reagan only in charge of the Interior and the bureau of Indian Affairs if anything. They hated Reagan then and they hate him now. I'm not surprised you or texasforever or any other liberals in the party would put together a post trashing Reagan.
"Rather than try to segment the issues, wouldn't it simplify things if GWB united the party by taking an anti-amnesty position?"
It wouldn't unite the party. I think that amnesty, eventually, is morally necessary. So do a lot of other conservatives, particularly Catholics. There are 18 million people here. They have lives and jobs. Their lives are precarious because they don't have legal protections. Putting up a fence stops the flow. That is something that most conservatives can agree about. Uprooting and hounding those already here is not something we're going to agree on. I think they need to be allowed to settle, eventually, because to try and deport 18 million people is too cruel.
Bush likes Mexicans. He has them in his family. Even if it would unite the party by opposing any grant of amnesty, ever, he wouldn't do it because he thinks that morally wrong.
That's why I say that the better course, to preserve the Republican Party and get good progress on the border issue is to agree to DELAY discussion of amnesty until NEXT year or afterward, but get the Fence approved THIS year and start building it.
The Border conservatives have to be given something substantial, something that will largely solve the problem long term. Amnesty is so divisive that we can't resolve it, so we need to kick the can down the road. Once the fence is up and running, and illegal immigration has slowed to a trickle, it will be possible to revisit the issue of amnesty and it will be in a different light. Maybe it won't win. Eventually it probably will. But if there's a fence up, than any amnesty that eventually happens will truly then be a one-time-only, final issue, because there won't be a trans-border flood to refill the ranks of the illegals.
Bush can't just flatly oppose amnesty in order to bring you back, because then he'll lose me and he'll be making war against his own convictions. But what he and I CAN do is postpone that issue, get a fence up first, let everybody cool off, and then make our moral arguments again in an atmosphere where it doesn't seem like we're just trying to empty out the compartment just to let more come in through the revolving door.
The position that divides the party is the refusal to approve a fence, and the refusal to decouple the fence and amnesty. The pro-business lobby doesn't want a fence, and doesn't care about amnesty so long as more cheap labor keeps flowing in. THAT'S the default position if nothing gets done, but it's a big win for business lobbyists from industries using cheap labor, and it means a Democratic triumph in November.
Republicans have to do something on the border.
The most effective thing is to build a fence and talk about amnesty again in a year or two, in different circumstances.
That is Wolfstar's work...
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