Rumsfeld Heckler Believed Saddam Had WMDs

Sweetness & Light ^ | May 8, 2006 | N/A

[Sam Hill]

By now we have all heard about the dramatic showdown between Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the former "CIA analyst" Ray McGovern.

Indeed our one party media has portrayed McGovern as a hero for confronting Rumsfeld over his damnable lies about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

And McGovern has been everywhere crowing over chastisement of Rumsfeld, such as he did here to Paula Zahn on CNN:

MCGOVERN: And when he used that wonderful non sequitur by looking at the uniformed personnel in the front row and saying: "Well, they went in with protective gear; they certainly thought there were weapons of mass destruction there." Well, my goodness, of course, they did. Because you, Donald Rumsfeld, told them that they were there.

And, you know, it's not polite to say this, but that was a bald-faced lie. And ... he should have owned up to it, if he wants there to be a modicum of trust.

Leave aside the easily discovered fact that Ray McGovern is a America-hating anti-Semitic lunatic. It turns out that McGovern himself believed Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction and that he would use them against the US.

In fact before the war McGovern (like Joe Wilson) used Saddam's WMDs as his argument why we should not invade Iraq.

Here is a memo McGovern and his VIPS group wrote to the President of the United States on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, courtesy of CommonDreams.org:

CIA Veterans Speak Out

Friday, February 7, 2003

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President
FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

Secretary Powell's presentation at the UN today requires context. We give him an "A" for assembling and listing the charges against Iraq, but only a "C-" in providing context and perspective.

What seems clear to us is that you need an intelligence briefing, not grand jury testimony. Secretary Powell effectively showed that Iraq is guilty beyond reasonable doubt for not cooperating fully with UN Security Council Resolution 1441. That had already been demonstrated by the chief UN inspectors. For Powell, it was what the Pentagon calls a "cakewalk."

You have said that Iraq is a "grave threat to the United States," and many Americans think you believe it to be an imminent threat. Otherwise why would you be sending hundreds of thousands of troops to the Gulf area? In your major speech in Cincinnati on October 7, 2002, you warned that "the risk is simply too great that Saddam Hussein will use instruments of mass death and destruction, or provide them to a terror network." ...

Terrorism

Your intelligence agencies see it differently. On the same day you spoke in Cincinnati, a letter from the CIA to the Senate Intelligence Committee asserted that the probability is low that Iraq would initiate an attack with such weapons or give them to terrorists...  UNLESS:

"Should Saddam conclude that a US-led attack could no longer be deterred, he probably would become much less constrained in adopting terrorist actions."

For now, continued the CIA letter, "Baghdad appears to be drawing a line short of conducting terrorist attacks with conventional or chemical/biological warfare against the United States." With his back against the wall, however, "Saddam might decide that the extreme step of assisting Islamist terrorists in conducting a weapons-of-mass-destruction attack against the United States would be his last chance to exact vengeance by taking a large number of victims with him."

Your Pentagon advisers draw a connection between war with Iraq and terrorism, but for the wrong reasons. The connection takes on much more reality in a post-US invasion scenario. ...

Chemical Weapons

With respect to possible Iraqi use of chemical weapons, it has been the judgment of the US intelligence community for over 12 years that the likelihood of such use would greatly increase during an offensive aimed at getting rid of Saddam Hussein.

Listing the indictment particulars, Secretary Powell said, in an oh-by-the-way tone, that sources had reported that Saddam Hussein recently authorized his field commanders to use such weapons. We find this truly alarming. We do not share the Defense Department's optimism that radio broadcasts and leaflets would induce Iraqi commanders not to obey orders to use such weapons, or that Iraqi generals would remove Saddam Hussein as soon as the first US soldier sets foot in Iraq. Clearly, an invasion would be no cakewalk for American troops, ill equipped as they are to operate in a chemical environment.

Casualties

In his second inaugural, Abraham Lincoln appealed to his fellow citizens to care for those who "have borne the battle." Years before you took office, our country was doing a very poor job of that for the over 200,000 servicemen and women stricken with various Gulf War illnesses. Today's battlefield is likely to be even more sodden with chemicals and is altogether likely to yield tens of thousands more casualties. On October 1, 2002 Congress' General Accounting Office reported "serious problems still persist" with the Pentagon's efforts to protect servicemen and women, including shortfalls in clothing, equipment, and training. Our troops deserve more effective support than broadcasts, leaflets, and faulty equipment for protection against chemical and biological agents.

No one has a corner on the truth; nor do we harbor illusions that our analysis is irrefutable or undeniable. But after watching Secretary Powell today, we are convinced that you would be well served if you widened the discussion beyond violations of Resolution 1441, and beyond the circle of those advisers clearly bent on a war for which we see no compelling reason and from which we believe the unintended consequences are likely to be catastrophic.

/s/

Richard Beske, San Diego
Kathleen McGrath Christison, Santa Fe
William Christison, Santa Fe
Patrick Eddington, Alexandria
Raymond McGovern, Arlington

Steering Group
Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

Unsurprisingly (given his close coordination with McGovern and other VIPS members by this point), Joe Wilson IV was promoting the same exact line in the editorial pages of the Los Angeles Times at exactly the same time:

John Conyers, Joe Wilson, Cindy Sheehan, Ray McGovern.

A 'Big Cat' With Nothing to Lose

Leaving Hussein no hope will trigger his worst weapons, U.S. envoy in historic '90 meeting warns

By Joseph C. Wilson

LA Times Op-Ed
February 6 2003

Saddam Hussein is a murderous sociopath whose departure from this Earth would be welcomed everywhere...

Desert Storm was a just war, sanctioned by the international community and supported by a broad multilateral coalition. Today we are on the verge of another conflict with Iraq, but unlike Desert Storm, the goals are not clear -- despite Secretary of State Colin Powell's eloquent argument for war in his address Wednesday to the United Nations Security Council...

During the Gulf War, we were always acutely aware of the need to be confrontational on the issues at hand but to leave Hussein, a proud and vain man, a way to save face...

There is now no incentive for Hussein to comply with the inspectors or to refrain from using weapons of mass destruction to defend himself if the United States comes after him.

And he will use them; we should be under no illusion about that.

Hussein and Aziz both told me directly that Iraq reserved the right to use every weapon in its arsenal if invaded, just as it had against Iran and later the Kurds.

The fact that thousands of men, women and children had died in these attacks fazed them not one bit. In fact, Aziz could barely be bothered to stop puffing on his Cuban cigar as he made these comments, of so little importance was the use of chemicals to kill people.

It is probably too late to change Hussein's assessment, and that will make any ensuing battle for Iraq that much more dangerous for our troops and for the Iraqis who find themselves in the battlefield.

The assertion that Hussein might share weapons of mass destruction with a terrorist group, however, is counterintuitive to everything I and others know about him. The Iraqi leader is above all a consummate survivalist.

He acts as if he expects the people around him to die for him, but he has long known that every terrorist act, and particularly a sophisticated one, raises the question of his involvement and invites blame. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose. In his mind he is Iraq, Iraq is Hussein, and as long as he survives, Iraq survives.

After then-Secretary of State Jim Baker made it clear to Aziz on the eve of the Gulf War that the United States would destroy Iraq if weapons of mass destruction were used, Hussein did not use them. He is not stupid, and for him living is better than dying in vain.

Now, however, if he feels his death is inevitable, he may well arm extremist groups in an attempt to have a last, posthumous laugh.

Along with our drive toward war, it should also be made clear to Hussein that -- in the little time remaining -- he still has a choice.

We should do everything possible to avoid the understandable temptation to send American troops to fight a war of "liberation" that can be waged only by the Iraqis themselves. The projection of power need not equate with the projection of force.

Both Ray McGovern and Joe Wilson were arguing that the US should not invade Iraq because Saddam would use his weapons of mass destruction against our troops and give them to other terrorist nations.

Of course now McGovern and Wilson both claim that they and everyone else knew Saddam had no WMDs. They now both claim that Rumsfeld and the rest of the administration were lying and ignoring the massive intelligence to the contrary.

But isn't it peculiar that they believed Saddam had WMDs just a month before the war began? And why are they now trying to demonize those who held the same beliefs they did?

Just as McGovern said about Rumsfeld. "He should have owned up to it, if he wants there to be a modicum of trust."

Except, unlike Rumsfeld, McGovern is a lunatic that nobody should trust.

[Sam Hill]

Of course McGovern also works closely with fellow VIPs Larry Johnson and Mel Goodman and other names in the news.

Here are some related threads:

Wilson Didn't Complain About "The 16 Words" Until He Was Working On Kerry Campaign
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1445574/posts

Wilson (2/02/2003): "Hussein will use WMDs to defend himself"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1443079/posts

Former CIA Agent Phillip Agee On the Wilson Affair (The Traitor And Murderer Opines)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1442831/posts

CIA 'Expert' Larry Johnson: "Plame Undercover For Three Decades"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1451694/posts

Flashback: "Intelligence Analyst" Larry C. Johnson: "The Declining Terrorist Threat (July 10, 2001)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1447248/posts

'Terrorist Expert' Larry Johnson's Frontline Interview About Bin Ladin (2000)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1451559/posts

Ex CIA Larry Johnson: Terrorism Isn't A Threat, But Big Tobacco Is!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1448666/posts

Larry Johnson, Daniel Ellsberg & The Truth Telling Project --Pleading For Intel Leaks
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1451334/posts

Larry Johnson's Group (VIPS) Called On CIA Employees To Leak Secrets To Hurt Bush
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1450548/posts 

Is Ex-CIA Agent Larry C. Johnson Threatening A Freeper?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1450846/posts?page=58

[Sam Hill]

Some more insanity from this lunatic, courtesy of the Alex Jones show and "Prison Planet":

Former CIA Analyst: Government May Be Manufacturing Fake Terrorism

A Government openly promoting torture, A President acting like a King cannot be trusted, must be impeached

Prisonplanet.com | October 19 2005

Ray McGovern, former CIA Analyst during the Regan and Bush 41 regimes, joined Alex Jones on his daily radio show Monday 17th October as part of a round table discussion of issues surrounding the Iraq war and the “war on terror”.

McGovern launched straight into the War in Iraq and suggested that over the last few months there has been a “sea change” in public opinion, and now over two thirds of Americans, according to major opinion polls, are against the war and can now see through the Neo-con Propaganda that so clouded their judgment in the lead up to the war.

McGovern went on to comment that there has built up an ignorant attitude amongst more well to do Americans that the troops dying everyday are expendable. There has been a shut down in the minds of people who cannot place themselves in the shoes of the families who’s sons and fathers and brothers are being needlessly slaughtered for a corrupt elite agenda.

Mr McGovern stated that the war “has nothing to do with democracy or freedom or defending “our way of life”, it is to do with enriching the pockets of those who support this administration.”

Alex then put it to Mr McGovern that Congressman Ron Paul had recently been on the show and said that The Bush Administration was openly trying to set up a martial law police state in America. McGovern responded in the affirmative:

“Well it does seem that those who have his (Bush’s) ear are hell bent on giving away or providing wider responsibilities to our military. Witness what they are talking about now with giving the military primary responsibility for catastrophes, for hurricanes and so forth. Our military has been built up as an instrument of power but has never existed with this kind of potency before, and so we all need to look at this because there are laws against using the military in law enforcement capacities and we need to get to our Congressmen and Senators and say “look enough of this stuff.”

McGovern then moved on to talk about terrorism and the fact that if there was another major attack in the US, it would mean a martial law state (According to General Tommy Franks) and a breakdown in our freedoms.

He amazingly went on to suggest that if another attack took place we should not accept what the government tells us because it could be them carrying out the terror.

“We have to be careful, if somebody does this kind of provocation, big violent explosions of some kind, we have to not take the word of the masters there in Washington that this was some terrorist event because it could well be a provocation allowing them, or seemingly to allow them to get what they want.”

McGovern said he would not put it past the Government to “Play fast and loose” with terror alerts and warnings and even events themselves in order to rally people behind the flag.

Last week we revealed how a major terror alert in New York was outed as a fake, and magically boosted Mayor Bloomberg’s ratings.

Mr McGovern then went on to reveal his opinions on the possible upcoming indictments within the Bush Administration, siding with the view that the truth will out and the Administration will come toppling down because of the way it has continually forged a bedrock of lies to justify the War In Iraq.

But he warned that we have to stay vigilant and continually expose the lies because we no longer have a free mainstream press. If we stop looking they will get away with anything they want.

Mr Govern Stressed that the founders wrote the Constitution with far sighted possibilities in mind, and we may now be at that juncture. The founders provided us with the ability to impeach any Government should it take away our liberties or any President, should he attempt to act like a King or an Emperor.

At this very moment we have a President about to veto a ban on torture. Even at the height of the British Empire torture was still outlawed because it was recognized as the pinnacle of human rights violations. What more does this Administration have to do before we remove it from power?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/october2005/191005McGovern.htm

[tobyhill]

Well that certainly sheds some light on McGovern's demeanor, he's just another partisan hack.

[Echo Talon]

bunch of commies is all they are, democrats dont care about truth.

[Recovering_Democrat]

Wow, send this information to CNN's Paula Zahn. I bet she'll do a piece balancing out her interview.

And monkeys might fly out of my butt.

[Sam Hill]

You're too kind. He's also a lunatic.

One of his other causes over the years has been trying to force the Roman Catholic Church to ordain female priests. In 1993 he began disrupting church services:

TURMOIL AT HOLY TRINITY PARISH

At Sunday School, in 1993, Christin McGovern and the other sophomores of Holy Trinity parish in Washington, D.C., were studying the sacraments. When the teacher got to holy orders, young Christin said she wasn’t interested in learning about a sacrament she couldn’t receive. Her father Ray, decided his daughter was right and a few week later began standing throughout Mass to protest the exclusion of women from holy orders. The “Standing,” as it became known, and how the parish grappled with it are the subjects of James Naughton’s book Catholics in Crisis: An American Parish Fights for Its Soul. (Addison-Wesley. pp 273-24)…

When the theologically sophisticated Ray McGovern is given an opportunity to explain his protest to his fellow parishioners, he centers his talk around the question, "Why can’t mommies be priests?" He notes that just a few years ago, mommies could not be doctors or lawyers either.

In 1998 he demonstrated at the CTA national conference wearing a stole:

Call to Action 1998 Conference Detailed Agenda

Justice for Women: A Matter of Conscience

Ray McGovern has made a sustained witness against the subordination of women in our Church: his silent standing and stole-wearing at parish Mass in Washington, DC is described in Jim Naughton’s book, Catholics in Crisis. Ray speaks personally about why he did it (including a young daughter’s dismay at being told one sacrament is off limits), the volatile reaction of a progressive but fearful parish, and the lessons learned. He challenges other men to join the struggle. McGovern spent 26 years as a foreign affairs analyst for the CIA. He and his wife Rita have five adult children. Sat., 1:30 PM and 8 PM. Incl. Q/A.

McGovern is now involved with a non-Catholic street preacher “ministry” in Washington, which involves (you guessed it) “Speaking Truth to Power."

[Sam Hill]

Or consistency.

McGovern and Johnson also participate in Daniel Ellsberg’s operation, the "Truth Telling Project":

A Call to Patriotic Whistleblowing

September 9, 2004 . Washington, DC

It is time for unauthorized truth-telling.

Citizens cannot make informed choices if they do not have the facts–for example, the facts that have been wrongly concealed about the ongoing war in Iraq: the real reasons behind it, the prospective costs in blood and treasure, and the setback it has dealt to efforts to stem terrorism. Administration deception and cover-up on these vital matters has so far been all too successful in misleading the public. Also See:

TruthTellingProject.org Many Americans are too young to remember Vietnam. Then, as now, senior government officials did not tell the American people the truth. Now, as then, insiders who know better have kept their silence, as the country was misled into the most serious foreign policy disaster since Vietnam.

Some of you have documentation of wrongly concealed facts and analyses that–if brought to light–would impact heavily on public debate regarding crucial matters of national security, both foreign and domestic. We urge you to provide that information now, both to Congress and, through the media, to the public.

Thanks to our First Amendment, there is in America no broad Officials Secrets Act, nor even a statutory basis for the classification system. Only very rarely would it be appropriate to reveal information of the three types whose disclosure has been expressly criminalized by Congress: communications intelligence, nuclear data, and the identity of US intelligence operatives. However, this administration has stretched existing criminal laws to cover other disclosures in ways never contemplated by Congress.

There is a growing network of support for whistleblowers. In particular, for anyone who wishes to know the legal implications of disclosures they may be contemplating, the ACLU stands ready to provide pro bono legal counsel, with lawyer-client privilege. The Project on Government Oversight (POGO) will offer advice on whistleblowing, dissemination and relations with the media.

Needless to say, any unauthorized disclosure that exposes your superiors to embarrassment entails personal risk. Should you be identified as the source, the price could be considerable, including loss of career and possibly even prosecution. Some of us know from experience how difficult it is to countenance such costs. But continued silence brings an even more terrible cost, as our leaders persist in a disastrous course and young Americans come home in coffins or with missing limbs.

This is precisely what happened at this comparable stage in the Vietnam War. Some of us live with profound regret that we did not at that point expose the administration’s dishonesty and perhaps prevent the needless slaughter of 50,000 more American troops and some 2 to 3 million Vietnamese over the next ten years. We know how misplaced loyalty to bosses, agencies, and careers can obscure the higher allegiance all government officials owe the Constitution, the sovereign public, and the young men and women put in harm’s way. We urge you to act on those higher loyalties.

A hundred forty thousand young Americans are risking their lives every day in Iraq for dubious purpose. Our country has urgent need of comparable moral courage from its public officials. Truth-telling is a patriotic and effective way to serve the nation. The time for speaking out is now.

SIGNATORIES

Edward Costello, Former Special Agent (Counterintelligence), Federal Bureau of Investigation

Sibel Edmonds, Former Language Specialist, Federal Bureau of Investigation

Daniel Ellsberg, Former official, U.S. Departments of Defense and State

John D. Heinberg, Former Economist, Employment and Training Administration, U.S. Department of Labor

Larry C. Johnson, Former Deputy Director for Anti-Terrorism Assistance, Transportation Security, and Special Operations, Department of State, Office of the Coordinator for Counter Terrorism

John Brady Kiesling, Former Political Counselor, U.S. Embassy, Athens, Department of State

David MacMichael, Former Senior Estimates Officer, National Intelligence Council, Central Intelligence Agency

Ray McGovern, Former Analyst, Central Intelligence Agency

Philip G. Vargas, Ph.D., J.D., Dir. Privacy & Confidentiality Study, Commission on Federal Paperwork (Author/Director: “The Vargas Report on Government Secrecy”–CENSORED)

Ann Wright, Retired U.S. Army Reserve Colonel and U.S. Foreign Service Officer

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatowski, recently retired from service in the Pentagon’s Office of Near East planning

Ironically, these same gentlemen were the first up in arms (and in the mainstream media) about the "leaking" of Valerie Plame’s (non-covert) status at the CIA.

Former Intelligence Officers Ask Bush to Suspend Security Clearance for Rove, Other Leakers

15 November 2005
President George W. Bush
Office of the President
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

Most respectfully, we, the undersigned, as former intelligence officers who have served this nation in a variety of capacities, both undercover and in the open, are writing to deplore the breach of trust between this Administration and members of the intelligence community that has resulted from the Valerie Plame case. Moreover, this nation’s clandestine intelligence service will be seriously undermined if those culpable of disclosing or discussing her identity are pardoned after being found guilty or allowed to continue holding security clearances.

Mr. President, you entered office with the promise to restore honor to the White House and in the spirit of that pledge later promised to hold accountable anyone on your staff implicated in the leak of Valerie Wilson’s classified identity. Mr. President, we are asking you to keep your promises.

As intelligence professionals our allegiance has been first and foremost to protecting the Constitutional government of the United States. This commitment supersedes partisan politics. We have worked undercover, out of the limelight, and employed clandestine methods to gather information about individuals and nations who have sought to harm the United States and its citizens. In carrying out these duties we rely on you and the members of your administration to protect our secrets and safeguard our identities.

Inexplicably, this bond of trust was shattered with the exposure in July 2003 of the identity of Valerie Wilson, a CIA case officer working under non-official cover. [This is a boldfaced lie.] It is clear that at least two members of your staff—I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby and Karl Rove—were implicated in this act. [Oops. That is no longer quite true.] Most of us are not lawyers and we make no claim as to whether any law was violated. However, the actions of these senior White House officials have compromised and destroyed valuable intelligence assets. It does not matter whether their disclosure of Valerie Wilson’s identity as a CIA officer was unwitting or intentional. Their actions destroyed both her career and her intelligence network, which was devoted to protecting this country from the threat of weapons of mass destruction.

Therefore, we are asking that you immediately suspend the clearances of all White House personnel who spoke to reporters about Mrs. Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA. They have mishandled classified information and no longer deserve the level of trust required to have access to this nation’s secrets.

We also ask that you make it clear that any individual, who is convicted of a crime stemming from the leak of the classified identity of Valerie Wilson, will not receive a pardon. The refusal, so far, of I. Lewis Libby to heed your call for full cooperation with the prosecutor raises the specter that he will try to stonewall the investigation in hopes of ultimately being pardoned by you.

We believe that the President, in his role as Commander-in-Chief, has a duty to demonstrate the highest standards when it comes to protecting our nation’s secrets. We are reminded that Vice President Cheney, when he was Secretary of Defense, dismissed the Air Force Chief of Staff for inadvertently disclosing classified information to the press. The Vice President recognized correctly that the mishandling of classified information, regardless of intent, must be punished.

If you take these steps you will be sending a clear message that your first priority is the nation’s security rather than your aides’ well being. You will demonstrate that you will not tolerate people in your Administration who mishandle our nation’s secrets and send an unambiguous message to the American people, as well as our enemies, that you are serious about protecting the security and safety of America.

Respectfully,

The undersigned current and former intelligence professionals— (listed alphabetically):

A. Dale Ackels, Col. USA (ret.)
Robert Baer, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Vincent Cannistraro, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Brent Cavan, former Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
Philip Giraldi, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Melvin A. Goodman, former Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
Mike Grimaldi, former Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
Karen Kwiatowski, political military staff analyst, retired Lt Col, USAF, Ph.D.
Larry C. Johnson, former Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
W. Patrick Lang, Col. USA (ret), Chief of DIA Middle East Division, Director Defense Humint Services
Melissa Boyle Mahle, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Jim Marcinkowski, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
John "Jack" McCavitt, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Ray McGovern, former Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA
David Rupp, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA
Bill Wagner, former Case Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA

You see, you can only leak to help our enemies. Not to get the truth out about someone (Joe Wilson) who is lying to help our enemies.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

Thanks for your good work assimilating this.

I wonder how many more of these anti-America nuts are scattered throughout the government?

[backhoe]

You may find this of interest- some "stuff" I pulled off the blogs:

Now the "Rummy flap" makes sense:

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2006/05/rummy-lied.html

Rummy "lied"

Andrew Sullivan says the man who heckled Rummy was Not some crazed lefty. The man who demanded that Rumsfeld answer the questions we all want to have answered turns out to be the man who gave former president George H. W. Bush his daily intelligence briefing.

No not some crazed lefty. The man was Ray McGovern, who Sweetness and Light noticed was part of Daniel Ellsberg's Truth Telling Project. Here's the relevant blog entry from the Belmont archives:

Sweetness and Light has noticed that the press has quoted two former counterterrorism experts in defense of Mary McCarthy but omitted one interesting detail, which may or may not be relevant. Here's ABC News report quoting the first expert, Ray McGovern to the effect that McCarthy had a higher duty to "defend the constitution".

Then Sweetness and Light notices that both Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson are associated with Daniel Ellsberg's The Truth-Telling Project. For those who are unfamiliar with the name Daniel Ellsberg, here's the Wikipedia entry.

Ray McGovern's role is described on this Truth-Telling Project web page.

Commentary

Watching the video I fully expected Rummy to be massacred inside of McGovern's kill-zone since McGovern had the ability to choose the very specific ground on which to challenge Rumsfeld.

The counterfactual which proves Rumsfeld "lied" is this cited exchange from a DOD briefing:

So now if we compare the statements of Ray McGovern and Donald Rumsfeld side by side, here is what we get:

Ray McGovern	Donald Rumsfeld
QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.	RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –
QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.	RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

  | 225 comments links to this post   The opponents of the Administration have long sought to conflate the two issues; for instance, the Press recast the 9/11 Commission's findings of "no proof of operational coordination" into no link whatsoever. That is a false meme, because the Commission did find quite a few contacts and connections between Saddam's Iraq and Al'Qaeda. This is not an arguable point; this is simply what they found.

 

[prisoner6]

Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity

V.I.P.S.

ROTFLMAS!!!!!

Yup...they're sane...repeat after me...this is my elbow, this is my knee.
This is my elbow, this is my knee.
Elbow, knee
Elbow, knee
Every day in every way I'm getting better and better.

prisoner6

[AmeriBrit]

BTTT

[ScaniaBoy]

Ping to myself for later read.

[Just mythoughts]

What is their gain by lying? JFKerry was not joking when he and his masters tried to set in motion a reenactment of Vietnam, they are the quagmire.

[Wristpin]

Notice the coordinated releases and similiarity of talking points by the VIPS and Wilson. Almost on the same day!

[IrishMike]

Thank you for this very informatative post.
Excellent reading.

[Just mythoughts]

Yes. What I would like to see is what their 'end game' is, can't tell yet if they have in mind to put Saddam back in power or if they have another in mind.

[Matchett-PI]

bttt

[IrishRainy]

I cannot STAND this guy. I've known about him for a couple of years, since I had the dubious "honor" of engaging in debate with him on KFYI a few years ago. He was on the Charles Goyette Show (who is thankfully gone!) and I was on my way home from work, listening to the monotonic dribble this guy spews out regularly. By the time I got home, I was livid!

After googling him, I called the station, mainly because I wanted his agenda to be known to the other listeners, since Mr. Goyette was certainly not mentioning it. I told him he was being disingenous about his guest, that he was a leftist wacko, etc. I was NOT anxious to get into a discussion with McGovern - what was the point, the guy's a loon, what with his O-I-L propaganda. However, Charles kept asking me loaded questions, and then when I answered him, they would both gang up on me, attempting to ridicule my every point. I was reduced to trying to talk over them, sorta like Ann Coulter on H&C, then finally hung up.

This guy is involved in just about everything anti-American, and I despise him. To find out he's also trying to destroy my Church shouldn't come as a big surprise to me, but now I have even more reason to abhor this man.

[prisoner6]

ROTFLMAS my bad...should have been ...oh you know...I got distracted cuz I just figured out I was at Duquesnse University with Gen Hayden...sorta...he was reg AF by then, I was a cadet.

prisoner6

[thelastvirgil]

"Wow, send this information to CNN's Paula Zahn. I bet she'll do a piece balancing out her interview."

Oh yeah, Zahn'll be all over this. She and every other hump working at the Clinton News Network are honor graduates of the Mary Mapes School of Journalistic Ethics.