Posted on 05/07/2006 5:19:26 AM PDT by Mr. Brightside
An absence of people driving in? Orderlies/security to keep the family out of the way?
You said that your objection was that an anesthesiologist...........the medical specialty that is the most highly trained in critical situation life-support............should "GTF" out of the way and allow a paramedic to handle his allegedly dying daughter "unless he had an ICU in his pocket".
Now you say that the advantage of the ICU would be to keep him out?
More folks and stuff down the hall, access to x-ray, Cat scan, lab data, whole blood, surgical suite, and a whole lot more. If you work in a hospital you should be aware of that.
I know that. That's what I do for a living.
However, it does absolutely no good for us to X-Ray and CT a lifeless body brought in by the Aid Car because the paramedic on the scene was in a situation over his head and, in a critical 3 minutes, could not prevent his patient from arriving to us D.O.A.
One lesson that was drummed into us at our Combat Casualty Care Course at Fort Sam Houston was that you DO NOT put a patient into the med-evac helo until that patient has been stabilized.
The father was informed that his daughter "WAS DYING".
Translation: His daughter would most likely be be D.O.A.
Almost hitting a helicopter? Is that close enough?
If it is true.
There is a joke in medicine that the way that you can accurately tell how much a man drinks is to take his version and multiply it by two and then take his wife's version and divide it by two and split the difference.
I would no more take a single cop's or a single perp's version of a story on faith any more than I would take a fisherman's word about how big the fish that got away was.
While I can sympathize over his concern for his daughter (I'm a great-granddad myself), the guy was a hazard to everyone on the scene--and his daughter. He could have come in differently with some consideration for the safety of everyone there and if he had, he probably would not be facing charges.
We have yet to establish if that was what actually happened or if a "Napoleon" cop (as defined by Phsstpok in Post 38) is getting his shorts in a knot because somebody challenged his authority.
Unless you are some cop-hater who thinks the cop has some little hitler thing going you would probably consider that the vast majority of cops would not arrest a parent in this situation unless the guy was way, way out of line.
What does the "vast majority" have to do with one particular cop in one particular situation?
One particular cop threatened to arrest Phsstpok as related in his Post 38 and Phsstpok was later backed up by the Police Chief himself.
Would you let some unknown guy come barging into your ER, claiming he is a doctor and a relative, shove you out of the way, and just let him take over one of your patients?
No doctor can possibly be equally skilled in all aspects of medicine. In my specialty, I can never hope to be as good at critical life support as an anestehesiologist whose specialty concentrates on that very thing.
If a patient crumps in my department with a situation that is severely taxing the limits of my critical life support abilities and a relative comes in and announces that he is an anesthesiologist, my first reaction would be, "Thank you, God!!!"
A few questions and it is relatively easy to see if a guy knows what he is doing or not.
When your daughter is, according to the official information, "dying", you do not just sit there and let some unknown paramedic let her die because maybe he had the ET tube down her esophagus instead of down her trachea and he did not know any better because that was only the sixth intubation he had ever performed in his entire life.What official called?
Also you seem to make some pretty bad assumptions about the competency of the paramedics, something which was never at issue. If she survived, they did their job in spite of him.
Levels of competency do not mean incompetency.
In reading a CT Scan for a subarachnoid hemorrhage, the level of competency would be first me, then the anesthesiologist then the paramedic.
For stabilizing a dying patient, the level of competency would be first the anesthesiologist, then the paramedic and then me.
The issue was not that the job was being well done at the time but the perception at the time. At the time, the father was informed: "YOUR DAUGHTER IS DYING".
Let us say that you are a 30 year-old active duty Navy S.A.R swimmer with 10 years of experience and an ex-Olympic swimmer. Let us say that you are at a beach and you are informed that you daughter is "drowning" in the surf but that the 18 year old Life Guard is trying to save her.
I would bet anything that you would be in that water in a flash rather than "allowing the Life Guard to do his job".
You not only do not get the idea that this guy was apparently a hazard to everyone there including his daughter by his actions, and regardless of his qualifications.
You apparently do not want to.
Regardless of his medical abilities, which seem to be why you assume his actions were "OK", if he caused sufficient disruption on the scene to get arrested he was a danger to everyone there.
Is it "OK" to endanger Fire/Rescue, EMS, and police responders, the pilot and everyone there driving into the scene like an idiot ("narrowly missing a helocopter") because he is a doctor? Would it be OK if he were a real estate agent or a bricklayer?
As a fireman, I have had to restrain relatives who in their fervor to cuddle their child would have done them serious damage. No fun, but definitely in the patient's best interest.
No amount of changing the argument to one of his medical competency will convince me that the guy was anything other than a loose cannon (albeit a concerned parent).
The attitude that doctors are somehow allowed by virtue of their profession to endanger the lives of other 'lesser beings' sure creeps through your post. Get over it.
No cop I have ever known would have charged the father with a felony unless he had acted with brazen disregard for the safety of those on the scene, and that ultimately includes his daughter.
While battery charges can stem from relatively minor things, my bet is that the guy was way out of line, even for a frantic parent.
So, he was "driving like an idiot" based on what?
The complaining cop's version of the events?
You seem to have the mind set that accused is presumed guilty of what the cop accused him of or else he would not have been charged in the first place.
As a fireman, I have had to restrain relatives who in their fervor to cuddle their child would have done them serious damage. No fun, but definitely in the patient's best interest.
And what does that have to do with an anesthesiologist who is, by medical specialty, the most qualified medical specialist to handle a critical life support situation?
Look at Phsstpok's Post 38 where he relates where the cops moved a girl without securing her neck after a riding accident thereby resulting in her death?
If you were a fireman at that scene and a relative with more medical experience than the cops had barged in to say, "Don't you move my daughter without securing her neck!"............What would you have done?
Restrain the relative for the patient's "best interest"?
No cop I have ever known would have charged the father with a felony unless he had acted with brazen disregard for the safety of those on the scene, and that ultimately includes his daughter.
Tell that to Phsstpok.
The cop he had a confrontation with threatened to arrest him for "refusing to follow his orders" even though the cop's order could have killed this patient just like that very same cop had killed the teen aged girl in the horse riding accident:
Probably one of the most accurate, informative replies I have ever seen here. Great job!
As a Lieutenant on a fire department, would you really not accept the advice of a physician, especially a anesthesiologist? I can understand that you would not, by SOP or Protocol, turn over care to that person, but to not let him in to advise? How foolish!
I would, using discretion, admit a close relative to the scene as well.
Some, in their distraught state, however want to 'hold their baby'--a normal response of a caring parent toward a hurt child, but one which can do tremendous damage to the patient. Those have to be held back. It is heartbreaking, but it has to be done or they may be going to a funeral instead of visiting at the hospital.
NOTE: The guy did not get charged with giving advice, he was charged with driving into an accident scene, narrowly missing the helicopter (which were I the Lieutenant there, implies reckless disregard for MY people there and others, whom I am responsible for as ranking officer on the scene), and committing battery on a paramedic and a cop.
It is a tragic day to lose any of your personnel to the normal dangers of the profession. It is criminal for someone who is a medical professional, relative or not, to recklessly endanger them and those they are trying to help in the course of their duties.
I am not arguing that he may or may not have superior medical credentials, but let's look at a little human nature here. Did his actions seem professional to you? Or is 'stunt driver' on his curriculum vitae?
As a medical professional he should have been well aware that there are ways to handle things without creating more problems than already exist at the accident scene.
Tell the nearest police officer or fireman who you are, what your qualifications are, that you are the victim's father. The chances you will be allowed in are really good.
Just go driving in there and there will be a long line of pissed off fire/ems/police personnel, and they can form up behind me.
Now FWIW, I have not been a Lieutenant on a Fire Department since 1974.
You secure an accident scene to provide an environment where the paramedics can stabilize and extricate the victim wihtout worrying about getting run over. You secure a site to land an evac helicopter so people do not run into the helo while it is waiting or loading victims for transport. Breaching that cordon with a vehicle qualifies as driving like an idiot, in my book.
Maybe you think people should ignore flagmen at construction sites as well.
The complaining cop's version of the events?
You misspelled that. It is cops' version (plural--read the article).
We had it out with local police when I was a fireman over EMS qualifications. Either you had the card--and the experience--or you didn't. Most police personnel did not.
It came to a head when we had a drill, complete with overturned vehicles in the ditch, moulages, blood pumps and fake blood, etc. We did not advise the police beforehand.
One of the firemen from a company involved was laying in a depression, half under one of the vehicles, with a very convincing fake disembowelment, rigged with a pulsing pump which was switched on to spew fake blood as the first police officer on the scene approached (dispatch was aware of the drill, but did not advise the officer). The officer in question stared until the pump ran dry, went back to the cruiser, retrieved a blanket and placed it over the 'deceased'.
To say the least, when the dust settled, things had been sorted out.
You seem to have the mind set that accused is presumed guilty of what the cop accused him of or else he would not have been charged in the first place.
I suppose the police and EMS personnel could have made all this up. Now would you explain why? Just to be buttheads?
Get real, relatives are normally cut a lot of slack for being upset.
Look at Phsstpok's Post 38 where he relates where the cops moved a girl without securing her neck after a riding accident thereby resulting in her death?
Who said the cops were qualified EMS personnel? Not me. See what I wrote above.
If you were a fireman at that scene and a relative with more medical experience than the cops had barged in to say, "Don't you move my daughter without securing her neck!"............What would you have done?
First, the relative would not have had to advise me of that. As far as the police officer goes, if necessary, I would have resorted to battery of the officer to stop him from moving an unsecured likely cervical fracture victim.
In this state, I have a right to intervene on behalf of a third party in order to save their life, up to and including lethal force. It would have been a real legal mess, but the x-rays and medical testimony would have been my defense in court.
I am not anti-doctor here. I am not anti-relative. I am not strictly pro-cop. But, in my experience (where victims' relatives have been cut a lot of slack) this guy had to really be out of line to be slapped with a felony charge.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.