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FairTax good idea
The Joplin Globe ^ | April 25, 2006 | Staff

Posted on 04/26/2006 8:29:38 AM PDT by Eaglewatcher

Americans are disenchanted with the federal income tax system. And why not? Only accountants and agents of the Internal Revenue Service understand the 8 million words on the 60,000 pages of the complex Tax Code. Given some of the horror stories over the years about conflicting interpretations from one IRS office to another, even that assumption is suspect.

According to an Ipsos Poll, eight out of 10 people recently surveyed think the system is unfair. Indeed, the only clear common ground for agreement between the various income groups in the poll appears to be their unhappiness. And they are echoing the sort of complaints heard a year ago when Uncle Sam held hearings on simplifying the code.

Any tinkering with the current system by Congress likely will be perceived as political manipulation in response to pressures exerted by special interests. For despite congressionally mandated, administration-recommended reforms, the code remains cumbersome and intimidating, complete with social engineering breaks and loopholes. So why not eliminate the unfair, distrusted and generally despised code and replace it with something far more equitable and efficient and less labyrinthian like the FairTax.

Taxpayers wouldn't have to worry about being audited by the IRS or making mistakes on their income tax forms. Gone would be corporate taxes, self-employment taxes, gift taxes, estate taxes and capital-gains taxes as well as the income tax. Yet, the bottom line for federal revenue would remain the same.

Everyone would contribute to the national sales tax. Collections would be made at the point of purchase. A system of monthly rebates could be set up for the poor making less than a federal income threshold. Much of the paperwork required by the IRS would simply disappear, replaced by sales tax collection forms. Such efficiency and simplicity would be an economic spur.

One would think that politicians whose jobs depend on being popular with voters would leap at the opportunity to get rid of the disliked tax code. Some day, they will.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Government
KEYWORDS: economy; fair; fairtax; tax
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To: Kellis91789

Awwww - what's a little order of magnitude error among friends??? Can't a guy have a bit of phun???


41 posted on 04/26/2006 3:05:02 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: pigdog
The "Joplin Globe" is now the WSJ eh? Better tell the folks at dowjones & company they have to move... But obfuscation seems to be your forte.
42 posted on 04/26/2006 3:06:18 PM PDT by xcamel (Press to Test, Release to Detonate)
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To: jetson

'Deed it don't!!!


43 posted on 04/26/2006 3:06:36 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: xcamel

Guess you've never read the WSJ. The FairTax has been favorably editorialized there more than once.

Don't try to say I called the Joplin Globe the WSJ since I did not. But I guess you're comfortable with your litle untruths like so many of your cohorts.


44 posted on 04/26/2006 3:09:20 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: layman
THe 15.3% is from the wage base. However, the consumption base will be nearly twice as large - in fact the amount of the nrst devoted to pay SS/MC is 35% of the total or about 8.1 of the 23 - not 15.3 of the 23.

That leaves 65% of taxe revenue to be devoted to general revenue, not 33%.

45 posted on 04/26/2006 3:10:10 PM PDT by Principled
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To: GSlob
The nrst imposes little, if any additional loss of purchasing power to Roth or after tax savings.

As for the flat tax, I would argue that it is worse than both our graduated income tax and the nrst at reducing purchacsing power of after tax money.

The flat tax presents the same "double" taxation problems as our graduated income tax plus others. In fact, the flat income tax is a type of Value Added Tax (VAT)..specifically, it is a subtraction method VAT.

46 posted on 04/26/2006 3:15:12 PM PDT by Principled
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To: ops33
I am deeply skeptical of any reform of the tax system and adoption of a sales tax type system that does not include repeal of the XVI Amendment.

As you should be, IMO. However, amendments cannot accompany a bill. Admendments must be stand-alone.

The next question is usually why not repeal 16th first? ANother good question, but one that has been gone over for decades. The final disposition of this is that nobody will repeal the 16th without a viable source of revenue in place.

That's how we got here.

47 posted on 04/26/2006 3:18:35 PM PDT by Principled
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To: layman
Well, even if you base it on all 300 million in the population, which includes 60 million children under age 15,...

People under 15 buy things - not as much I'm sure - but why not include them to a certain degree?

Whatever number you choose to use, it must also include illegal aliens' spending, criminals' spending money on legal transactions, and foreign tourists. And illegals will always pay the max rate.

48 posted on 04/26/2006 3:22:37 PM PDT by Principled
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To: pigdog
the correct number is not your "15.3" but 8.09% tax inclusive of the taxable amount of the transaction taxed

Let's assume you spend 100% of what you earn, and you earn $100. Under the present system SS/MC receives $15.30. Under Fair Tax you receive and spend your entire $100. You get $81.30 worth of merchandise and pay $18.70 in Fair Tax. SS/MC still needs $15.30 out of your $100 of gross earnings, so this leaves $3.40 to cover what presently is generated by income tax, which equates to a 3.4% federal income tax rate. If you are paying 3.4% federal income tax then, yes, please educate me. My original point was that 23% will not result in a revenue neutral plan. The percent will need to be much higher.

49 posted on 04/26/2006 3:48:48 PM PDT by layman (Card Carrying Infidel)
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To: layman

Let's assume you spend 100% of what you earn, and you earn $100. Under the present system SS/MC receives $15.30.

 

Not all that people earn is subject to SS/MC tax in point of fact, half of all income earned in the nation is not liable for those taxes. This is due both to the $90k cap on taxation of wages, and the fact that only wages and self-employment income is even subject to the tax to begin with.

The average SS/MC tax rate paid with respect to total household income is actually closer to 8.4% according to CBO which is much closer to the AFT allocation than your superficial calcualtion that presumes all income is wage income less than the $90k cap.

50 posted on 04/26/2006 4:09:48 PM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: layman
You are still thinking that the wage base is similar in size to the consumption base.

If gov't needs 15.3% of wages, it does not mean that gov't needs 15.3% of consumption. Obviously, if the amount of wages being taxed is different than the amount of consumption being taxed then the proportion that must be tax can differ.

If, for illustration, the wage base is $100 and the gov't needs $15.30 to pay SS, then the tax on wages would have to be 15.3%.

If, however, the consumption base of $200 is used, then a rate of 7.65% on consumption will raise the reuired $15.30.

This is trivially obvious and I'm beginning to think you're playing games.

51 posted on 04/26/2006 4:26:11 PM PDT by Principled
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To: Eaglewatcher
"Any tinkering with the current system by Congress likely will be perceived as political manipulation in response to pressures exerted by special interests."

Perceived? noooo, I would say that any tinkering would be in response to pressures exerted by special interests.

Time to take back the power! www.fairtax.org
52 posted on 04/26/2006 4:43:42 PM PDT by socialismisinsidious ( The socialist income tax system turns US citizens into beggars or quitters!)
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To: GSlob
Both start withdrawing and spending their money under "fair tax" system. The former would be paying consumption tax, but that would be instead of the previously deferred income tax he has not paid to get his 401k. The double taxation issue concerns the latter: he will be hit with the consumption tax on top of the income taxes he has already paid to put that same 100K into his Roth or in the saving account. Thus, unless there are specific compensatory provisions, like up-indexing of all after-tax accounts, it is a double taxation fraud.

Investors will not be double taxed. The Fair Tax will abolish the income and captial gains taxes Fair Tax FAQ #2 I suggest you visit and read the Fair Tax website before you make anymore statements about the Fair Tax.
53 posted on 04/26/2006 4:54:50 PM PDT by Man50D
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To: layman
Since you seem unable or unwilling to do any learning, I see that ancient_geezer in his post #50 and Principled in his post #51 have seen fit to straighten out some of your "awkward" thinking.

In addition, to show how far off base your reasoning is, here's a link to show how the FairTax is actually revenue neutral.

54 posted on 04/26/2006 4:55:35 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: Man50D

Maybe it is you who should read more closely, and then think on what you've been reading? Capital gains are currently taxable at 15%, capital cost basis at 0% [already taxed] - and you would like to tax them both at 23%. My point was - exclusively - the double taxation, in this particular case of the capital cost basis.


55 posted on 04/26/2006 5:01:58 PM PDT by GSlob
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To: layman
I don't believe 23 percent will be enough to result in revenue neutral federal tax receipts. Here's why. Of the 23 percent, 15.3 would still have to go to the Social Security fund, leaving 7.7 to generate about two trillion which is the amount currently generated by all federal taxes other than Social Security. This means annual expenditures on new items at the retail level would have to be about 26 trillion. This converts to about $180,000 for each of the 144 million persons currently employed in the country. This seems very unlikely to me.

The 23% will be enough to be revenue neutral. Most people fall into the 15% tax bracket. All wage earners also pay a 7.65% payroll tax. The total of the two covers the 23%. Fair Tax FAQ #5
56 posted on 04/26/2006 5:03:16 PM PDT by Man50D
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To: pigdog
You folks can't even post a real news story, just pre-written "editorials" printed by some backwater "Bugger Flats" free newsrag.

Ever notice news stories or editorials in favor of the flat tax are fewer and farther between compared to those written about the Fair Tax?
57 posted on 04/26/2006 5:08:09 PM PDT by Man50D
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To: GSlob
...and you would like to tax them both at 23%.

Well, I think you're wrong - Man50D doesn't want to tax anything.

Beyond that, what specifically are you asserting that the nrst will double tax to an extent greater than now?

58 posted on 04/26/2006 5:10:20 PM PDT by Principled
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To: pigdog
The "Joplin Globe" is now the WSJ eh? Better tell the folks at dowjones & company they have to move... But obfuscation seems to be your forte.

What post #42 doesn't understand it's not the the big cities and high financiers who run this country but the good folks who live in less populated places like Joplin.
59 posted on 04/26/2006 5:12:47 PM PDT by Man50D
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To: ops33
I am deeply skeptical of any reform of the tax system and adoption of a sales tax type system that does not include repeal of the XVI Amendment.

Then you'll be happy to know House Joint Resolution 16 will abolish the 16th Amendment!
60 posted on 04/26/2006 5:16:45 PM PDT by Man50D
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