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1 posted on 04/18/2006 5:23:40 AM PDT by 13Sisters76
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To: 13Sisters76
Like most social policy issues, this is an issue of incentives. We give schools more money per student to teach special education so ...SUPRISE....now there are a more special education children than ever.

We pay good teachers and bad teachers the same based upon their experience and their unionized contract so ... SUPRISE... the good teachers are unmotivated and the bad ones that can't be fired.

We have unmotivated good teachers and bad teachers that can't be fired so ...SUPRISE... the standards begin to fall and the costs begin to rise. They produce less education per dollar than they used to.

We need to find a way to put some rational incentives back into the process. we need to make it FAR easier to fire bad teachers and promote good ones. the simplest way to get that would be to implement universal vouchers. Then all the incentives will be put in place by market forces.
108 posted on 04/18/2006 6:47:54 AM PDT by tcostell (MOLON LAVE)
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To: 13Sisters76
I have taken my son out of public school and I am home schooling him. It's all you say it is, but it's also more.
Our school system has been on national television as the worse in the nation as far as being run like concentration camps.

The racism against white kids is rampant, while the entire school year can be bad, the first of the school year is most treacherous, if your child is attacked and puts up his arms to defend himself, or pushes his attacker away, he is considered as guilty as his attacker and faces in school suspension and a $250.00 to a $400.00 fine.

There are, of course, the usual Muslim prayer rooms, while Christian prayer is not allowed. There are drug and weapon searches with the students sitting at their desks while drug sniffing dogs and cops make their way around the class room sniffing book bags.

Near the midterm break the trouble makers will often drop out or do what that sort usually do, transfer around a lot, thankfully, leaving the rest of the kids in some kind of peace.

I'm sure many have seen the pictures of the riot at Parks Mall when high schoolers were let out of school early one day. What many do not know is that this same scene plays out at the mall every weekend. Parents use to take their kids to the mall on the weekend and leave them to meet up with friends and shop, it's become too dangerous to do that on some days.

My son was at the mall with a date on the way to the movies, being pushed and shoved, and called honkey, as they waded through a crowd of about twelve hundred "shoppers", when gunfire erupted between two gangs in the food court. Parents were dragging their terrified children under tables. The police showed up and put a curfew in place and began to chase the thugs out. Many jumped in the movie line, as if they were really going to see a movie, the cops figured that out and pulled them out of line. My son won't go near the mall now on certain days.

While some days I may allow my son to meet up with old school chums at a local eatery during school lunch hour, I generally keep him as far away from that insane asylum as possible.
111 posted on 04/18/2006 6:51:38 AM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: 13Sisters76
Have you had any exposure to the International Baccalaureate program located inside of many public high schools? If not, then I highly recommend researching them and if you qualify, you may want to teach these children.

International Baccalaureate

Last year, my daughter's IB program ranked as the top high school in the world in English Comp and World History.



These programs are not everywhere, but they are FREE!
113 posted on 04/18/2006 6:53:12 AM PDT by DocRock
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To: 13Sisters76

You're right on. I have a very good friend who did the "troops to teaching" thing, i.e., went from the military into a classroom. He hated every second of it and quit after one year. The problems were numerous, but most began with the kids he was teaching who had never had a moment's discipline in their lives. The parents didn't care. He would call the kids' homes and beg the parents to take an interest in their children's educations, only to be told that they weren't getting to paid to teach, he was.

Most of the kids he taught had never actually passed a grade; they'd been "socially promoted" all the way to seventh grade. But the school system expected him to teach Algebra to kids who literally couldn't add two and two.

The kids didn't care that they were tragically ignorant. Many of them told him they were just waiting to turn 16 so they could drop out and sell drugs. They all thought they were going to be rich and famous.

My teacher friend was told point blank by his principal to pass all the kids on, regardless of whether they'd shone up to class, done any homework or passed a single test. No child was to fail, period. They argued bitterly and he gave the kids the grades they'd earned on his grading sheet; the principal changed all the grades to passing.

I could go on, but you get the idea. You've been there. I do believe there are good public schools in this country, but they are few and far between. The parents who can't be bothered to raise their kids coupled with a liberal education establishment have largely ruined public education in this country, and all the money in the world isn't going to fix it.

BTW, this was not an urban school. It was the only middle school in a county of 30,000 total population.

P.S. I homeschool.


117 posted on 04/18/2006 6:56:40 AM PDT by LadyNavyVet
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To: 13Sisters76
Recent Experience: Our school district is one of the very few that does not have 5-day per week band/orchestra/vocal music class. Right now, they meet 3 days/week. Administration, in an effort to bring our music department "up to snuff" in this area, took the planned curriculum change to the Board of Education.

Long story short: the Board, in their wisdom, charged the Administration with getting feedback from the kids on what their "thoughts and feelings" were about this. So, in effect, the kids "voted with their feet" by refusing to pre-register for the music classes, and voicing their "disapproval" when the principal and vice-principal asked their "feelings."

The Board patted themselves on the back for making "data-based decisions." What a joke. The inmates are running the asylum! Can you imagine getting the kids' feedback about a change in math requirements? Ridiculous. But, that's the place we are in education. The kids rule supreme.

118 posted on 04/18/2006 6:56:42 AM PDT by PLK
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To: 13Sisters76
Here is the html command for a paragraph.

Put this <> around this p

If I did this here it wouldn't show up.

122 posted on 04/18/2006 7:02:05 AM PDT by Aquamarine
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To: 13Sisters76
My daughter attends Apex High school in Wake County, NC. There are over 2500 students at this school and the facility is far from glamorous. When I visit the school I am amazed at the learning environment and the behavior of the students. Almost all are top notch, polite and high achievers. Most volunteer in the community and I have never met a student there that I didn't like. It certainly gives me hope for the future and I think they are a better bunch of kids than my generation (early 70's). Based on my recent experience with teens (10 years), I am optimistic. Let's hear from other people intimately involved with teens.
125 posted on 04/18/2006 7:06:40 AM PDT by crymeariver (Good news...in a way)
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To: 13Sisters76
I'm dealing with the school system right now. They gave my son a zero and detention for failure to follow directions. He did follow the directions, problem is, the teacher changed his mind about his own directions after my son turned in his work. Twenty other students received the same punishment. The class my son is in has thirty one students.

I went to see the Vice Principle to show her the directions he gave, and she produced her own copy complete with markup. I asked her why her copy was marked up and she said because she had a meeting with the teacher and her notes were to clarify the document. I said, well if it wasn't clear to you how could it be clear to my son? She said the two situations weren't related. She also said the document in question was to be revised pending all parental comments, further proving the document was lacking in clarity. I feel like I'm in bizarro world.

I also found out that two classes participated in the project, one receiving a zero and detention while the other received no punishment whatsoever.
127 posted on 04/18/2006 7:09:02 AM PDT by TheForceOfOne (El Chupacabra spotted near U.S./Mexican border feeding on illegal immigrants. Pass it on..)
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To: 13Sisters76

I've heard all of this before from my dad. He was a substitute teacher in the Maryland public school system. You are right on the money.


132 posted on 04/18/2006 7:25:30 AM PDT by SeƱor Zorro ("The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"--Qui-Gon Jinn)
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To: 13Sisters76
To all you small, self impressed, arrogant jerks that can't see past punctuation or simple spelling errors when someone's taken the time and effort to highlight a problem that's as threatening to our nation's future as Iran, North Korea, or Radical Islam: You are no better than the students the poster, 13Sisters76, writes about. In fact, I'd say 13Sisters76's description of the students, "rude, disrespectful, full of themselves, pretentious, out of control, sex obsessed and stupid." does a good job of describing each of you.

As to your topic 13Sisters76, I hope in the remaining weeks of the school year you'll find a way to get through to just some of your students, for they are the future of our country. Try not to despair about the overwhelming failure of things outside of your control, but look for any tiny success where you've had some beneficial impact on some student. Before giving up on your career, see if your training may benefit other students in some other setting. One bright spot, those students refusing to be educated won't someday be picking apart somebody's HTML formating skills.
136 posted on 04/18/2006 7:32:46 AM PDT by Sefton (Don't let the Senate give our country away! Amnesty, No! Enforcement Si!)
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To: 13Sisters76
I would assume not every public school is exactly the same. A lot has to do with the area. I say this because I am trying not to always be negative. My sister-in-law tells me how wonderful her children's school is and how the teachers work with the parents for the benefit of their children.

Meanwhile, no one in my church will let their children go to the nearest public school. There are a number of public charter schools that people I know will send their children to. They will go out of their way to get their children to schools out of our area. Just so they don't have to go to this particular school.

Some of the children who do go to this school are my next door neighbors. The children are just as you described. They are destructive,disrespectful to neighbor's property, unruly, and sit around talking about G-Unit all the time.

While walking home from the park one morning I overheard a very upset mother walking past the school talking on her cell phone. "I told her that," she said. "But, when the kids need help, they ask the teachers and they won't help them." I am sure there was more to this story, but I almost (but didn't, I know) stopped to suggest she might want to try another school.

137 posted on 04/18/2006 7:36:58 AM PDT by HungarianGypsy
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To: 13Sisters76
I went to private (Catholic) schools through high school, but I can remember my public school friends talking about the tough non-nonsense teachers they had. That was in the sixties. The only public schools I've attended were colleges. I remember taking classes in the early nineties. I recall one particular geography class where the professor had to daily talk over the noise from some yakking students.

He put up with this disruption the entire semester until almost the last week of term when in the middle of a lecture, he stopped and politely asked the offending students to keep quiet because he could barely hear himself talk. Here, as Paul Harvey would say (?), is the end of the story. The students involved in the disruptive yakking were both education students. That's right, both students wanted to become teachers.

140 posted on 04/18/2006 7:42:02 AM PDT by driftless ( For life-long happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: 13Sisters76

I flinched a little at your post "body" but had no problem tackling it. I guess it was because in high school I read Nathaniel Hawthorne and other authors who took paragraphs seriously. (I can actually remember having to mentally diagram the 50-word sentences just to pinpoint the subject and verb.) On the other hand, I studied journalism in undergraduate school and learned that paragraphs were to be judged less by content than by length in order to avoid reader eye fatigue. (At my age, it's beginning to be eye twitches.;o)).

At any rate, I completely agree with your frustration with the public school system. Obviously there are vast differences among the school systems but, by and large, most public school systems seem to serve the administration and staff more than the students. By that, I mean the administration and staff as a whole rather than individual members of those groups who want to change "the system".

Most of those drawn to education as a career are the type of personality that values procedure, tradition, and group mentality. The problem, partly, is that studies show that personality group is actually only a minority percentage of the population as a whole. One personality grouping study breaks the general population down into four types in the following percentages: 38-38-12-12. Teachers (and cops and military) tend to come from one of the 38 groups.

The problem is, each of the groups is so different from others not only by what they value but also by how they think, learn and get motivated that the disparate groups really don't operate on the same wavelength. The result is that schools, being almost 95% composed of one personality group, sees the world from a particular minority point of view as to how to teach and they have few colleagues to challenge that point of view. As a result, schools "synch" with the 38% of the students who learn and have values like the teachers, and schools have no clue as to how the other 62% of the student body learn.

I had hoped a long time ago that computers would help individualize the learning process and free up teachers to make the best use of their time and talents for those who needed it. I was perfectly capable of learning by computer, as was my 19-year-old daughter. However, my 18-year-old daughter, while every bit as intelligent (hey, give me a break, I'm a mom), needs to learn by human interaction. Instead, everyone is herded together like sheep and fed "power point" presentations, and discuss their "feelings". The worse of both worlds.

Freepers are concerned about education. Some express their concern by getting their kids out of the public school system. Others do so by being activist parents in the school system, and some are making real differences not only for their own kids and teachers but also for the kids and teachers who otherwise would have no cheerleaders.

You have a choice of sticking in there on the chance of making a difference but only you can determine whether you have a real chance or that snowball in you-know-where. Whatever you choose will be right for you. If you don't stay in the public school system, keep teaching. Try tutoring. Try offering your services to homeschool groups. Try consulting. There are a lot of ways to keep doing what you love.

Whatever you choose, keep thinking of ways we might constructively improve the public school system. I, for one, am not willing to give up on public schooling because its graduates will someday be my president (well, maybe), my policemen, my neighbors, and my fellow war allies. We can't wall ourselves away from the effects of public education even if we no longer have kids trapped there.

And keep posting. There are always spelling/grammar/punct-uation Nazis but most of them are good guys and we can always learn better skills. I appreciated your post and the discussion it engendered. Let's talk about ways to make a difference in our local school districts.




152 posted on 04/18/2006 8:05:47 AM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things.)
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To: 13Sisters76

Your observations of public schools are right on target. I work for a police dept. for a city in Ohio. I can only go into the public schools in this city for about 5 minutes when I am in uniform.

We had a 'riot' one year and one of the teachers was yelling from a second story classroom to the kids, telling them not to listen to the police.

He went to prison a few years later for smoking pot and having sex with some of the high school females.

The kids will openly taunt the police (when they are in crowds). And the whole place seems like a prison. There are about 15 security guards in each high school along with a 'School Resource Officer.'

One of our School Resource Officers made over 90 arrests at one of the High Schools in one year.

I believe the schools have shirked their responsibility of disciplining these kids, now they call the police for everything. This is a problem because more dept's are going to be sued for 'excessive force' and the police use of force is going to be scrutinized every time.

Cops are not babysitters and these kids feed off of the police presence and the 'thug' mentality that comes from being stopped or arrested by the police.

It seems to me that there are plenty of fingers to be pointed all around.

First and foremost at the parents who spawn these demons and could care less if they go to school, stay out of jail or if they are even living. Seems the only time they care is when it comes to getting more money from Uncle Sam for welfare benefits or if a potential lawsuit can be presented because someone arrested their thug kid and perhaps twisted his arm a little too much.

Then one for the Government who makes it impossible to throw the animals out of school who have no business or desire to be there. "No Darling left behind."

One for the Teacher's Union who line their pockets with Tax Levy money by creating more 'administrators.'

In our neck of the woods the School Superintendent, a female with the "it takes a village" mentality, decided that she would split our schools up into "small schools" each of them needing new principals and administrators to run the show. Of course that takes more money and more administrators.

Two years later our school system is still in "Academic Emergency" status, yet they are smiling because we are just a few points away from being placed into the next lowest rung of the ladder.

Another finger for the Feminazi's and liberals who are not teaching our kids, they are indoctrinating them into Secular Humanism, Situation Ethics, Homosexuality and every brand of Socialism under the sun.

And, one for the Little Boy who cries in the lane. hahaha.

At the start of this year I had to go to one of our Middle Schools on a fight call. One of the new security guards says to me "I can't believe the way these kids are talking to the teachers and principals here, their calling them 'Mother F'er,' telling the teachers 'Bitch, you don't tell me what to do.' etc.

A couple days later he got assaulted by a few of the brats.

I just laughed. It's been that way for a number of years.

In my opinion the only thing that is going to turn things around is the 2nd Civil War. This country seems to be split, 50% for the New Paganism and 50% for what is right, as evidenced by our last few Presidential elections.


160 posted on 04/18/2006 8:31:20 AM PDT by Cap'n Crunch
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To: 13Sisters76

Very sad. I'm glad my wife and I are homeschooling.


178 posted on 04/18/2006 9:20:15 AM PDT by I got the rope
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To: 13Sisters76
Put democrats in control of anything and thats what you get..
It should illegal for an officer in the military to be a democrat..
The NEA is an arm of the democrat party..

RAP is a symptom of America demise, the demise of RAP(if that ever happens) is a symptom of Americas recovery..

184 posted on 04/18/2006 9:41:49 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole..)
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To: 13Sisters76

If school is important at home, school will be important in school.

One thing that annoys me is the lack of care some parents take when speaking of teachers (and the school generally) in front of their children. Never undermine the teacher's authority in front of the child by careless speech. If the teacher is a bonehead, work outside the classroom and away from the child.

You can better gauge whether little Johnny is truly in trouble or a victim of incompetence if you have a working relationship with the teacher at the start of the year rather than after its hit the fan.


185 posted on 04/18/2006 9:44:10 AM PDT by steveyp
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To: 13Sisters76
Did you ever ask yourself, 'why' they are like they are? Ya gotta catch them while they're young.

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/brainwashing.html

188 posted on 04/18/2006 9:57:45 AM PDT by processing please hold (Be careful of charity and kindness, lest you do more harm with open hands than with a clinched fist)
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To: 13Sisters76

Check in your area for a homeschooling group that has a co-op learning center. You'll find kids who WANT to learn, but their parents may not feel qualified to teach a particular subject, so they let someone else do the teaching. Contact your state's Homeschooler's Association (a Google search should bring one up) to see if there is a message board on which you can post a question about the learning centers.


195 posted on 04/18/2006 10:50:06 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: 13Sisters76

Try a rural school for a change. You won't make as much money and may have to do without the "extras" but you'll find all in all the students "more Human" and the expectations higher than in a big city.


200 posted on 04/18/2006 12:27:43 PM PDT by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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