Posted on 03/31/2006 10:01:53 PM PST by freedom44
The Saudi fatwa reads as follows: "The Permanent Council for Scholarly Research and Religious Legal Judgment has studied the queries some individuals brought before the Chief Mufti… concerning the topic of the construction of houses of worship for unbelievers in the Arabian Peninsula, such as the construction of churches for Christians and houses of worship for Jews and for other unbelievers and [the question of] the owners of companies or organizations allotting a fixed place for their unbelieving workers to perform the rites of unbelief.
"After considering the queries the Council answered as follows:
"All religions other than Islam are heresy and error. Any place designated for worship other than [that of] Islam is a place of heresy and error, for it is forbidden to worship Allah in any way other than the way that Allah has prescribed in Islam. The law of Islam (shari'a) is the final and definitive religious law. It applies to all men and jinns and abrogates all that came before it. This is a matter about which there is consensus.
"Those who claim that there is truth in what the Jews say, or in what the Christians say - whether he is one of them or not - is denying the Koran and the Prophet Muhammad's sunna and the consensus of the Muslim nation… Allah said: 'The only reason I sent you was to bring good tidings and warnings to all [Koran 34:28]'; 'Oh people, I am Allah's Messenger to you all [Koran 7:158]'; 'Allah's religion is Islam [3:19]'; 'Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him [3:85]'; 'The unbelievers from among the people of the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians] and the polytheists are in hellfire and will be [there] forever. They are the worst of all creation… [98:6].'
"Therefore, religion necessitates the prohibition of unbelief, and this requires the prohibition of worshiping Allah in any way other than that of the Islamic shari'a. Included in this is the prohibition against building houses of worship according to the abrogated religious laws, Jewish or Christian or anything else, since these houses of worship - whether they be churches or other houses of worship - are considered heretical houses of worship, because the worship that is practiced in them is in violation of the Islamic shari'a, which abrogates all religious law that came before it. Allah says about the unbelievers and their deeds: 'I will turn to every deed they have done and I will make them into dust in the wind [Koran 25:23].'
"Thus the 'ulama agreed that it is forbidden to build heretical houses of worship - such as Christian churches - in a Muslim country, and that it is forbidden for there to be two directions of prayer coexisting in a Muslim country, and that there should be no symbol of unbelief, neither churches nor anything else. They agreed that it is obligatory to destroy any church or other heretical house of worship that was built after [the advent of] Islam, and it is forbidden to oppose the ruler in the matter of its destruction, and he must be obeyed.
"The 'ulama agreed that building heretical houses of worship, such as churches, in the Arabian Peninsula is the most weighty of sins and the worst of crimes, because there are reliable and explicit sayings of the Prophet [hadith] that prohibit the existence of two religions in the Arabian peninsula [i.e. another religion in addition to Islam], among them the Prophet's words that were related by [Imam] Malik and others and were recorded in the Sahihayn [the two most authoritative collections of hadith for Sunni Muslims compiled by Al-Bukhari and by Muslim]: 'There shall not be two religions together in the Arabian Peninsula.'
"The Arabian Peninsula is Islam's sanctuary and its basis. It is forbidden to allow or permit unbelievers to penetrate it or to receive citizenship there or to buy property, not to speak of building churches for the worshipers of the cross. There is no place in the Arabian Peninsula for two religions, but only for one - the religion of Islam, sent by Allah through Muhammad, His Prophet and Messenger. There will not be two directions of worship there, but just one single direction - the direction of the Muslims, towards the Ka'ba in Mecca. Praise Allah who enabled the rulers of these lands to ward off these heretical houses of worship from the pure Islamic land.
"[We turn to] Allah, to whom we complain about the heretical houses of worship that the enemies of Islam brought, like the churches and others, to many Muslim countries. We ask Him to protect Islam from their cunning and deceit.
"If one allows or consents to the establishment of heretical houses of worship, like churches, or if one allots a fixed place in a Muslim country [for them to worship] - this is the worst sort of aid to unbelief and of bringing their rites into the open, [in defiance of what is said in Koran 5:2] 'Help one another to good deeds and fear of Heaven, and don't help one another to sin and aggression. Fear Allah, for Allah punishes harshly.'
"Sheikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya said: 'Whosoever thinks that churches are Allah's houses and serve as places for His worship, or whosoever thinks that the deeds of the Jews and the Christians are worship of Allah and obedience to His Prophet, and whosoever likes this and permits it or helps them [the unbelievers] to open [houses of worship] and to perform their religion and thinks this to be proximity or obedience [to Allah] - he is an unbeliever.'
"He also said: 'Whosoever thinks that visiting dhimmis [monotheist non-Muslims under Muslim rule] in their churches is proximity to Allah, he is an apostate. If he didn't know that this was forbidden, he should be so informed, and then if he persists, he is an apostate.'
"We find refuge in Allah in order not to backtrack from the right path… Those who turned back on their tracks after the right path was clear to them - Satan seduced them and filled their hearts with false hopes [Koran 47:25]'; 'They said to those who hated what Allah revealed: we will obey you in some matters, but Allah knows your secrets [Koran 47:26]'; 'How will it be when the angels take their souls and strike them on their faces and their backsides [Koran 47:27]'; 'This is because they followed that which angered Allah and they hated Allah's satisfaction, so he thwarts their actions [Koran 47:28]'.
And that is precisely the problem. Their silence is their assent.
And just for the record, I did 'do something' about it. I was sent to a foreign land to help those people. For my trouble I got to watch as 243 of my brothers were murdered by some son of mohamet screaming 'allah akbar'.
So great. You have hundreds of millions of muslims who either don't give a crap or quietly agree with these yankjobs.
That's just wonderful.
L
by Daniel Pipes
New York Post
July 30, 2002
"ISLAM IS EVIL." That's the message a U.S. Secret Service agent illicitly left on an Islamic prayer calendar on July 18 as he was raiding a suspected al Qaeda operative in Dearborn, Mich.
His crude graffito sums up a point of view increasingly heard since 9/11 in the United States. It's also one that is troubling and wrong.
Here is the rub: It is a mistake to blame Islam (a religion 14 centuries old) for the evil that should be ascribed to militant Islam (a totalitarian ideology less than a century old). The terrorism of al Qaeda, Hamas, the Iranian government and other Islamists results from the ideas of such contemporary radicals as Osama bin Laden and Ayatollah Khomeini, not from the Koran.
To which you might respond: But bin Laden and Khomeini get their ideas from the Koran. And they are only continuing a pattern of Muslim aggression that is centuries old.
Not exactly. Let's look closer at both points:
* Aggressive Islam: The Koran and other authoritative Islamic scriptures do contain incitements against non-Muslims. The eminent historian Paul Johnson, for example, cites two Koranic verses: "Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers will you find the Jews and Pagans" (Sura 5, verse 85) and "Then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them." (9:5).
* Aggressive Muslims: Fourteen centuries of Islam have witnessed a long history of Muslims engaged in jihad (holy war) to expand the area under Islamic rule, from the early conquests of the caliphs to what Samuel Huntington terms Islam's "bloody borders" today.
Yes, these points are accurate. But they are one side of the story.
* Mild Islam: Like other sacred writings, the Koran can be mined for quotes to support opposing arguments. In this case, Karen Armstrong, a bestselling apologist for Islam, quotes two gentler passages from the Koran: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith!" (2:256) and "O people! We have formed you into nations and tribes so that you may know one another." (49:13).
* Mild Muslims: There have been occasions of Muslim moderation and tolerance, such as those in long-ago Sicily and Spain. And in one telling example, Mark R. Cohen notes that "The Jews of Islam, especially during the formative and classical centuries (up to the 13th century), experienced much less persecution than did the Jews of Christendom."
In other words, Islam's scriptures and history show variation.
At present, admittedly, it is hard to recall the positive side, at a moment when backwardness, resentment, extremism and violence prevail in so much of the Muslim world. But the present is not typical of Islam's long history; indeed, it may be the worst era in that entire history.
Things can get better. But it will not be easy. That requires that Muslims tackle the huge challenge of adapting their faith to the realities of modern life.
What does that mean in practical terms? Here are some examples:
Five hundred years ago, Jews, Christians and Muslims agreed that owning slaves was acceptable but paying interest on money was not. After bitter, protracted debates, Jews and Christians changed their minds. Today, no Jewish or Christian body endorses slavery or has religious qualms about paying reasonable interest.
Muslims, in contrast, still think the old way. Slavery still exists in a host of majority-Muslim countries (especially Sudan and Mauritania, also Saudi Arabia and Pakistan) and it is a taboo subject. To enable pious Muslims to avoid interest, an Islamic financial industry worth an estimated $150 billion has developed.
The challenge ahead is clear: Muslims must emulate their fellow monotheists by modernizing their religion with regard to slavery, interest and much else. No more fighting jihad to impose Muslim rule. No more endorsement of suicide terrorism. No more second-class citizenship for non-Muslims.
No more death penalty for adultery or "honor" killings of women. No more death sentences for blasphemy or apostasy.
Rather than rail on about Islam's alleged "evil," it behooves everyone - Muslim and non-Muslim alike - to help modernize this civilization.
That is the ultimate message of 9/11. It is much deeper and more ambitious than Western governments presently seem to realize.
Are all religions other than Christianity heresy?
All other religions are heresy. And, Islam is devil worship.
Lovely. They're commanded to kill us all the time. How amazingly moderate of them.
In brief, the Koran is not a history book
No it isn't. It's an exhortation to commit mass murder and genocide.
Hey I'll make you a deal. I'll try to reup in the Corps if you buy yourself a plane ticket to say....Saudi Arabia so you can stand on a street corner in Riyadh and talk about how muslims need to be tolerant of Christians and most especially Jews.
If you make it out alive I might just come around to your way of thinking.
Actually, a genie falls under the broader category of jinn, which are supernatural spirits.
What is comes down to is: Islam is supposed to apply to everyone, whether they are believers or not. Christianity, Judaism, and many others apply the laws of their faiths among their own community, but not outside, especially when it comes to human interactions. That's God's domain.
So, we're supposed to just line up and submit to islamic law, allow ourselves to be classed as heretics, and punished accordingly...
Not bloody likely, Mo.
If Islam doesn't do good, then it must be evil. If it seeks only to destroy others, then it must be destroyed.
Making friends...
P.S. I knew a man who watched many of his best friends die at the hands of religious warriors screaming "BANZAI".
He never quitre understood the advent of Honda and Toyota on US soil.
Sh%t happens.
It's a simple question, why won't you answer it?
Yes or no...that's all.
Are all religions other than Christianity heresy?
"Islam" doesn't do a thing.
Islamists do things.
And those folks who were screaming BANZAI and (quite coincidentally beheading Americans) came around to our way of thinking quite nicely after we nuked them a couple of times.
Sadly I think the same thing will be necessary to calm the sons of mohamet.
L
Yes or no...that's all.
Are all religions other than Christianity heresy?
Hey Luis. Your premise is false. When BC did it to Abigale it was just as false as you are today. Let's just go with the ultimate truth: Does it do what it claims to do? Islam does not. If Christianity also does not, very well, trash it.
Are all religions other than Christianity heresy?
This is not the same, and he nuke thing will never happen.
But thanks for playing.
Are all religions other than Christianity heresy?
Perhaps you know more about Islam than I, but from what I have learned, there are many "versions" of Islam, much like there are many versions of Christianity. The statement posted is from the most extreme radical sect of Islam, well, perhaps not the most, Osama was/is a student of an even more extreme group.
Still, this group in Saudi Arabia is the one that has provided the majority of financial support for extreme fundamentalist teaching and recruiting for "jihad". It is from this group that most of the 911 hijackers came.
But it is also the threat from this group that caused Bush to cut and run from the US bases in Saudi Arabia after 911. Half a century ago the House of Saud cut a deal with them to secure their rule by giving them complete religious authority. And with Bush cutting a deal with Saudi Arabia to supply the world with oil, Bush has implicitly cut a deal with these wonderful religious leaders.
But Bush is hardly the first. I can't recall reading anyone who has written "supporting and aiding the Taliban to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan is/was wrong because they are a radical fundamentalist group", and the fact that Saddam had nothing to do with 911 and was as much an enemy of religious fundamentalists, relying instead on tribal/ethnic devisiveness to maintain power didn't produce a "whoa, do we know what we are doing in Iraq - will we give power to a religious fundamentalist minority in a secular society if we treat the factions in Iraq as religious?". We certainly have done much to promote to power the religious authority in Iran by our policies, and brand of Islam in Iran is condemned by our friendly Saudi jihadist allies.
To really understand the nature of Islam, I think one needs to compare what you know of Islam by using the same sources of knowledge of Christianity. I think that you will agree that the picture of Christianity taken by the same method as your picture of Islam is far different from what you know of Christianity among your family, friends, and neighbors. How many times do you find yourself discussing religion when the subject of assasinating a world leader or crediting a storm to God retribution for toleration. Of course, how often do you find yourself discussion religion; I suspect the discussion is much more about dealing with the leaky roof, the cost of college tuition, the price of gasoline, what to do about jimmy to make him spend time reading instead of watching TV.
I grew up hearing about terrorism. But the terrorism I heard about, and I'm not Irish in any sense, was of Christian terrorists. Christian terrorists who planted bombs in London, England for England trying to stop the violence in Northern Ireland. I've tried to understand that situation, and I can't. Where in Catholicism and where in Protestantism is the ideology that justified the killing and hatred that still lives on in that region, and that colors feels half way round the world.
Religion is and has been the tool of politics. The English colonies in the Americas were by and large intolerant, just as the Church in England was intolerant. The Bay Colony executed several Quakers, including Mary Dyer, for teaching her faith. The memory of such things were codified in the Constitution, first in the matter of oaths and religious tests, and then, as that was not consider sufficient, in the first of twelve amendments sent to the States.
American conservatives seem to be divided on this issue, with some adamently opposed to religion in government, either knowing history or from the experience of disagreement on fundamental matters of Christian faith, especially on church authority. Others, however, believe that religion was once integral to US government and blindly seek to introduce religion in the US government. With Bush either being in the latter camp, or beholden to him, he does not speak out clearly on the need for "separation of church and state". Thus he finds himself trapped by his position on church and state, and the matter of support for a state that is Jewish, the support for another state that is Islamic, the formation of another state that is tending to Islamic even as those who do not want it to be Islamic protest, and then the situation where one of Bush's allies has a state church issues the above declaration, and the law that calls for the execution of a Muslim for denying his religion, and being very open about it. Of course, execution for failing to adhere to the state religion has a long history, from the romans who executed Jews and Christians, to Spain that over time executed Muslims for not converting to Christianity, and executed Christians for failing to convert to Islam, to executing Jews for failing to convert. Execution has always been easy to avoid, repudiate the offending religion, sacrifice to the Roman god, leave the country. It is the religous group that the House of Saud put in charge of Islam that has taken the most extreme stand.
But to say that Islam is far more dangerous than any other relgion is to ignore history, recent history. Look at the speeches given by Hitler. He was leading Germany to the greater glory of a Christian God. He could not stand by as non-Christians exploited the Christians of Germany. The uncomfortably fact is that the attempt to exterminate the Jews was done in the name of a Christian God.
In the name of a Christian God, but not for a Christian God. Just as Osama is doing things in the name of Islam, but he is certainly not doing things for Islam, but for his vision of a world shaped to his will.
I think that Rumsfeld got it right in a different context when he placed blame at the feet of a "few bad apples". The things that you see evil about Islam are the result of the statements and actions of a few bad apples. Depending on who you count as Christian, the number of Muslims exceeds that of Christian, or is second to Christians. Are Catholics Christian? How about Mormons? Are Shia Muslim? The Dervish? And of what religion are the Kurds? Do not condemn all Muslim by judging them by a few, lest you define Christians by Jim Jones and his followers. Or the Dividians.
As long as it does me no harm I don't care if one worships Elmer Fudd.
And btw, lot's of folks were sure we would never nuke Japan. But we did, didn't we.
Don't say it will never happen. If some 'moderate muslim' manages to get a small nuke detonated in say the Port of Miami I guarandamntee you a 'muslim' city will be wiped from the face of the earth.
L
You can alsmost smell the fear.
The reason it is a crime punishable by death to leave islam is that people would leave in droves if they could. The Arabain peninsula must be kept free of Chrisitanity is due to the fact that it is the truth they don't want to hear.
"Those who claim that there is truth in what the Jews say, or in what the Christians say - whether he is one of them or not - is denying the Koran and the Prophet Muhammad's sunna and the consensus of the Muslim nation"
That sounds about right!
It's not "all Muslims" who are bad --- it's the very core of Islam itself.
Hitler, Jim Jones, the Puritan theocracy and others who abused and distorted Christianity to advance their own goals were not acting in accordance with the teachings of Christ.
Osama bin Laden is not an extremist Muslim --- he IS acting in accordance with the central beliefs of Islam as expressed in the Koran. Compare the Koran to any other religious text --- the Bible, the Torah, the Tao Te Ching, or Hindu and Buddhist scriptures.
I would be very surprised if you did not discover that the words of the Koran far surpass any of the others in terms of intolerance and advocacy of violence & oppression against non-Muslims. (Reading the Koran makes the worst parts of the Old Testament seem like...the New Testament.)
(By the way, Nazism had a lot more to do with Hitler's own fascination with the occult than with any form of Christianity. There are several good books on the subject you might care to check out --- revealing Hitler's true attitudes towards Catholicism and Protestantism, his adoption of the swastika as the emblem of his movement --- the guy was obsessed with the occult and black magic theory.)
I'm well aware of the violence that's been committed in the name of Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and other faiths throught history. As I mentioned in my previous post, my main concern regarding Islam is its closer resemblance to a (nightmare) utopian ideology (along the lines of Nazism or Communism) than a religion.
And Bush really needs to stop using that "religion of peace" line.
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