The Root Cause (Illegal Immigration's Apologists Depantsed)

Illegal immigration is recognized by many U.S. Citizens to be a threat to our nation. It's is a balkanizing process. It disrupts communities. It places financial strain on regions of our nation. It costs our nation tens of billions of dollars a year, if not hundreds. It is destroying our health care system. It disrupts the education system financially and in the teaching process due to language problems. It can place English speaking children at a disadvantage, in that spanish children receive elevated resources while English speaking kids take a back seat in the early years. There are problems of serious crime, multiple identities and recidivism.

These are serious issues, but let's ignore them. Remember, the apologists for illegal immigrants do it all the time. For once lets join them. (temporarily)

Right now lets spend a few moments exploring the number one rationalization for allowing the United States to be invaded and over-run by another nation's populace.

And what is that rationalization? Well of course, it's the "fact" that Mexicans only want a chance to earn a living for their families.

Think about that for a moment. You and I are being asked to allow our nation to be over-run, our language replaced, our neighbor's job and possibly your own given to a foreign national. We are being asked to pay their children's education. We are being asked to give them free health care. We are being asked to accept hospitals having to reduce services across the board, in order to recoup the expenditures for which hospitals are not reimbursed. Not only do you pay for illegal aliens health care, your own is being savaged in the process. You may not think so. That's okay. It is. All of this is asked, or more accurately demanded of you and I. We have very little choice.

I have never read an article about starvation in Mexico. I have never read of children being taken to mass orphanages because parents couldn't support them. I have never seen expansive stories about homelessness. Although Tijuana's cardboard city is legendary, people seem to be able to survive over there. I don't like the fact that Mexico's government allows this, but I am powerless to do anything about it. Trashing my own nation is not an option as far as I am concerned.

Look, I don't like homeless people on the streets of Los Angeles, but I'm not going to invite ten of them into my house to fix it. The United States is your and my house.

What I see is a massive number of people who wanted to live a better life, and decided to take that life from us. As your tax dollars go to pay for these people, that is exactly what is happening. They are taking from us. Lets be clear about this. These folks were not dying. They were not in danger of losing their family. They were not in danger of starving. What we are talking about, is a bunch of people who wanted a better life. That's it. That's all it amounted to.

How about you folks? It's all relative. I mean you're not dying. You're not in danger of losing your family. You're not in danger of starving. What we are talking about here is a better life. Do you want a better life? That's it. That's all we're talking about here.

Under the current policy of the United States, foreign nationals are entitled to a better life. Unless we're a racist nation, U.S. Citizens should be entitled to a better life also. As we have seen, breaking laws is an approved method of achieving a better life. It's okay for people to break into our nation. People can work in violation of U.S. laws. People are entitled to free health care for their whole family, and all children are entitled to a free education. That this can be achieved is proof positive that crime does pay, and all it takes to justify this is that you want a better life for you and your family.

This is rather liberating. I've wanted a new home for quite some time. Tomorrow morning I can go outside, take one look at the beautiful day, get in my car and go shopping. By tomorrow evening I'll have picked out a great new house, where I plan to move in. I'll pack up and move in on the following day. The next day I'll pick out a new car on the local dealer's lot and demand the keys. If I show up at the door, they'll have to serve me. Our current health care polices for illegal immigrants have proven that.

If I want more income, I'll just go to the local bank and have one of my kids walk up to the teller and demand $100,000. After all, the children of illegal immigrants are given a $100,000 education for free. When that runs out, I make certain to have had another kid who can walk up to the teller.

You know, this illegal immigration thing is looking better all the time. I take that headline back. I think it's the obstructionists like myself who have been depantsed. Who could argue against what the apologists for illegal immigrant have been backing for decades. I think they may be on the right track after all.

Hey folks, there's going to be a party at my new home on the 17th, I'll post the address, date and time later so all my friends with new homes, new cars and lots of cash can drop by.

Ben, seriuosly fella... I have explained to you in extensive detail why these proclamations on your part, and the parts of the government agencies and organizations you wish to believe in deference to reality, are nothing more than disinformation.

One example is your claim that the Justice Department says that illegal immigrant crime is not a problem. When I pointed out to you that that the Los Angeles country jail population was 50% illegal immigrants, you slughed it off and basicly asked who I was going to believe, the Justice Department or the facts.

When I pointed out the the Federal Prison population in California was 29% illegal immigrants, your response was the same.

I might add that at one point you actually stated my figures were considered by you to be fairly accurate. Despite this, that didn't matter to you.

Even if the jail and prison populations show vast illegal alien over-representation vs the illegal alien population at large in California, in one instance 10 to 1 and the other around 6 to 1, you still wouldn't acknowledge that there is an illegal alien crime problem.

No, you revert to your source the Justice Department. Ben, that is just laughable. Who are you going to believe, some stupid ass report or the actual jail and prison populations that show illegals over represented by a factor of 6 to 10 times?

I pointed out that due to illegal aliens many U.S. citizens are dead. Many others have been raped, molested, assaulted... the list is quite extensive. After all your bleeding heart defeneses of the illegal alien, you haven't expressed any pitty for our citizen victims whatsoever. You just revert to the same old line, the Justice Department says this isn't an issue.

I could waste my time responding to the other topics you raised in your last post to me, but your offerings concerning those were equally absurd.

You characterization that all I had to offer up was that "someone told me" is rather pathetic considering you haven't been able to refute one comment I've made, other than to say something to the effect that "the Justice Department" says it just can't be so. Well, the breakdown of the jail population is so and you know it. I'm sorry you can't come to grips with the reality you acknowledged, but that's not my problem. It's yours.

I never disputed the LA County data, though you have probably exaggerated the data.

And what would you base that on Ben?

I pointed out that crimes rates are measured on a per 1000 basis. Since there is a large concentration of Hispanics, illegals, organized crime, and drug activity there, that data is not extraordinary.

Well, thanks for pointing out the per 1000 basis Ben. That was a waste of time, but what the hey. Are you saying that 50% of Los Angeles County residents are illegal immigrants? That's what it would have to be to eliminate the significance of the 50% illegal alien population in the LA County jail.

To further illustrate that concept, I pointed out that 100% of the inmates in Baxter County are white. Should I draw conclusions about whites based on that data?

Ben, if the white population in Baxter county represents a very low percentage of the total Baxter County population, you may have a point. Would you care to provide a Baxter County democraphic breakdown for us, so we can consider your example.
If you have to rely on the premise that all the sources I have used are involved in conspiracy, you just look foolish.

Ben, I don't have to rely on a premise. I am relying on the current population of the Los Angeles County Jail and the Federal Prison in California. When compared to the population at large, illegal aliens are over-represented in each. I can say this 100 more times, but if you're too friggen stupid to gain any meaning from it, I can't help you.

Some of you may have seen my comments stating that 50% of the Los Angeles County Jail system population were illegal immigrants. Ben and I have been going back and forth on illegal alien crime and I've blasted him using this figure a number of times. Ben did some research and found that I had grossly overstated that actual figure. Ben didn't alert you to the fact, but anyone who saw me make this claim should see what follows. Thannks.

It appears you have found sources that refute my claim that 50% of the Los Angeles County Jail inmates were illegal immigrants. Your sources show closer to 23.5%, if they are the same figures I found. Federal officials estimate that in 2003, there were 170,000 inmates that passed through the LA County Jail system. Of that, 40,000 were here illegaly.

The first link here pulls up some excerpted matrial from the LA Times, that has been posted on another site. I believe it is valid, since it conforms fairly close to figures you've already quoted.

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000722.html

The second link here is an SFGate article that refers to the same Baca comments / efforts. It does not give the break-down as presented in the reprinted counts from the LA Times.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/01/31/jnelson.DTL

You were able to show that my claim was more than double the actual amount. I would say that appears to be a strong refutation of my claim. Lets look deeper. Before we do, I appologize for repeating something I did not take the time to look up. That was sloppy of me. I don't think it speaks well of me. I did not intend to mislead you, but in the end, I think you have a valid stake to that claim.

Ben, my premise all long was that every single crime committed on U.S. soil by an illegal immigrant, was a crime that should not have been committed here. The dead and abused, don't come back to life or feel any better knowing that most illegal immigrants don't commit crime. My premise was never that every illegal commits serious crime, but that when we allow illegal aliens in the nation, we are choosing to allow massive amounts of crime to take place as a side effect. Every crime that is perpetrated by an illegal alien is preventable. They should never have taken place. U.S. Citizens should not be losing loved ones to crime.

Although my figures were grossly inaccurate for the breakdown on illegal immigrants in the Los Angeles County jail system, the presence of illegal aliens in Los Angeles county is nowhere near 23.5% of the populace, so what you have accidently proven by outing my inaccuracy, is that illegal aliens are still vastly over-represented in the Los Angeles county jail system. Is it to the degree that I first stated? No it isn't, and that was wrong. But that's not the total story either is it Ben.

In an article called, the Illegal Alien Crime Wave, author Heather McDonald states the following.

In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html

This appeared in a quarterly magazine of urban affairs, published by the Manhattan Institute, edited by Myron Magnet.

http://www.city-journal.org

Is the population of Los Angeles 95% illegal alien? Is it even two thirds illegal alien?

The illegal alien element is vastly over represented in the Los Angeles city and county law enforcement systems.

Should we have to overtax our law enforcement systems to clean up the criminal illegal alien element? Should we have any homicides in our nation committed by illegal aliens?

I'm going to ask you once again Ben, do you care that thousands of our citizens are being slaughtered or wounded for life by folks who shouldn't be here?

I've seen no evidence of it up to this point.

You called me on an inaccuracy and you were right. I appologize for not checking the figures out before I repeated them. That does not mitigate the problem of illegal alien crime and it's massive number of victims.

I am amazed that you would imply that your mis-info is irrelevant. In the world of statistical analysis, doubling of a stat is gargantuan.

But the most egregious aspect of the statements is that she assigns no time interval. Without a time interval they are worthless. "Outstanding" means un resolved. Once a case reaches that position, it stays there so it is most likely that these numbers have accrued over years. It is also most likely they are outstanding or unresolved because the perp fled to Mexico and/or has different fake documents. Sheriff Baca readily admits that it is likely that they have had these individuals in custody more than once but they don't have the technolgy or money to determine that. It is feasible that the same individual could be on the list 2 or more times under different names.

Even if we give her the benefit of the doubt and say they are a yearly total because stats are kept by year, the numbers are either insignificant or unextrordinary. Compared to the total number going thru the system(170,000) or the number of illegals going thru the system(25% of 170,000) they are not significant.

What you and McDonald are trying to obscure is that there is a uniform method of reporting crime which results in a large and long lived set of reliable statistics. You want to change this to suit your agenda.

These credible stats are used by all who work in this "business". A deputy in LA County will use them to create his budget or initiate policy, Sheriff Baca will be looking at the same stats when he examines the budgets of all his deputies. The LA County supervisor will use the same stats when he weighs the needs of the sheriff versus the needs of the street dept.

A local ICE official, Sec Chertoff, and an official at OMB will be using the same stats. A criminolgy professor at USC and a analyst at Rand Corporation will be using the same stats.

Because everyone accepts the same fact/stats, creating policy and allocating funding in response to the stats can begin. There will never be agreement on what policy is best to follow. Baca and his deputy may disagree. Chertoff and OMB may disagree. Bush and Kennedy may disagree.

A good example is this issue of the cross border criminal aliens in LA.

The first policy maker will want to hire 500 new Border Agents to make it harder for the,if you have read this post I will give you five dollars, criminal alien to move back and forth the border. The second polimaker will say it is better to hire 200 new ICE agents and put them the LA County Jail to help recognize the perps as they go thru the system. You on the other hand, are using a completely different set of stats/facts and your policy recommendation is ignored because you are a crackpot.

I am amazed that you would imply that your mis-info is irrelevant. In the world of statistical analysis, doubling of a stat is gargantuan.

You were able to show that my claim was more than double the actual amount.
Although my figures were grossly inaccurate...
Is it to the degree that I first stated? No it isn't, and that was wrong.

Yes Ben, I sure played down the significance didn't I. Honestly Ben, you were right to point out my incorrect claim. I'm glad you did. The truth should be the goal here. To claim that I played down the significance is absurd. You just don't like the fact that you are still on the hook. The illegal immigrant population is no where near 23.5%. You don't think it's reasonable to point that out?

My problem was making a false claim Ben. When you pointed it out, I agreed with you and appologized. When I point out that illegal aliens are still over-represented in the Los Angeles County jail system and that they are also vastly over-represented in serious crime stats, you slough it off and acknowledge nothing. You're not grown up enough to acknowledge that 23.5% is likely three to four hundred percent higher than it should be, when it comes to the illegal alien component of crime in Los Angeles County.

I am acquainted with McDonald's article and her statements that you find so credible. On their face, you can see her mis-info. In the first one, there is huge difference between 1500 and 95% of 1200. In the second, there is a huge difference 17,000 and 2/3rds of 17,000. These differences would have a profound effect on stats.

Let's review: The article states, In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens.

You mischaracterized the above sentence miserably. The article clearly states that 95% of all outstanding warrants for homicide target illegal aliens. Where it leaves some ambiguity is that exact number of outstanding warrants. No matter what the exact number between 1200 and 1500, the percentage of illegal alien targets is 95% of the total warrants. I'm fairly certain you now how to read. I'm fairly certain you knew the actual meaning of the sentence. I'm also convinced that you are unwilling to face reality, as is evidenced by your confused at best, dishonest at worst response.

Again, lets review: The article states, Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens. That sentence like the one before it was definitive. Neither one was ambiguous. It says up to two-thirds of all felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

In each instance, the writer discussed a definitive percentage, 95% in one instance and 66% in another.

Anotherwords Ben, on the face of your response most folks will see your pathetic mis-info for what it is.

But the most egregious aspect of the statements is that she assigns no time interval. Without a time interval they are worthless. "Outstanding" means un resolved. Once a case reaches that position, it stays there so it is most likely that these numbers have accrued over years.

I know you're having a hard time with this Ben, so let me help. A certain percentage of the populace of Los Angeles commits crimes. Those crimes sometimes go unresolved. At the present there are between 1200 and 1500 unresolved murders. There are also thousands of other unresolved felony warrants outstanding. Whether there is a time factor stated or not, the populace at large is still the base from which these outstanding warrants were drawn. Whites can have outstanding warrants too. So can the Japanese, Koreans, Russians and a myriad of other nationals in Los Angeles. Strangely, those aren't the groups who have outstanding warrants. Illegal Aliens, most of which are Mexicans, are the target group.

It is also most likely they are outstanding or unresolved because the perp fled to Mexico and/or has different fake documents.

You're quick on the uptake there Ben. These people murder, rape, molest, assault, rob, defraud and commit lots of other crimes. Then they flee back into Mexico, in fact back and forth. Why do you think you can't shake me on this issue? I know this is happening and I'm damned sick of it. You aren't.

Sheriff Baca readily admits that it is likely that they have had these individuals in custody more than once but they don't have the technolgy or money to determine that. It is feasible that the same individual could be on the list 2 or more times under different names.

At this point I can't help but point out your desparation, implying that recidivism is only germain to the illegal immigrants. This is the place and time to post the states that verify that whites or other groups only commit one major crime. That should an interesting read.

The excerpted LA Times article placed the figure of illegals going through the LA County jail in 2003 at 40,000. That's 23.5% of the total and I'd say 40,000 crimes worthy of arrest would be considered significant and extrordinary by most people. Those 40,000 inmates' infractions run the gammet from murder & rapes to outstanding traffic tickets.

Ben, this is simply one more instance of you going on the record admitting that you cannot comprehend that a 300 to 400% over representation is significant. And that's just the incarcerated illegal immigrants. When it comes to outstanding warrants we're talking about 95% and 66%.

This was so upsetting to you that you completely dismissed it.

A local ICE official, Sec Chertoff, and an official at OMB will be using the same stats. A criminolgy professor at USC and a analyst at Rand Corporation will be using the same stats.

A good example is this issue of the ~~cross border criminal~~ illegal aliens in LA. The first policy maker will want to hire 500 new Border Agents to make it harder for the, if you have read this post I will give you five dollars, criminal alien to move back and forth the border. The second polimaker will say it is better to hire 200 new ICE agents and put them the LA County Jail to help recognize the perps as they go thru the system. You on the other hand, are using a completely different set of stats/facts and your policy recommendation is ignored because you are a crackpot.

As a person who has spent the last thirty years looking at studies and stats, I shouldn't have to tell you that they are each good to a point. They are not the be-all end all. If you would like to go on the record claiming they are the only guide that anyone needs, be my guest.

For instance, I have it on good authority that some Justice Department study states that illegal aliens are no more prone to commit crimes than U.S. Citizens. Then you look at the actual jail and prison populations in California and all the sudden that study colapses in on itself.

Ben, when people of your ilk trash talk, it just makes me that much prouder to be on the right track, so thank you.

I didn't make any pretense of backing Heather McDonald's whole article. I merely stated some facts included in the article. Now you're trying to quote her after resoundly trying to trash her yesterday as not credible. Which is it Ben? Do you think she is credible now, or do you still think she has no crediblity? You're rather confused there hot shot. I hate to do this, but thanks again, this time for the side splitting humor.

Wow Ben, you're treading on pretty thin ice there quoting someone who is explaining what happens at the border. Laughably, this is still the person you were trashing yesterday. You're now quoting someone you trashed yesterday for not being credible as she relates what I have said all along. Illegal aliens are a major source of crime.

This response from you is wierd even for you Ben. After you trashing the woman yesterday as having no credibility, you're now trying to use here for a crutch to support what I've said all along. I'd advise you to look for someone you can use as a stretcher instead.

The reality is Ben, I am going to continue to voice my opposition to legalizing people who have been breaking our laws for a long time. And when it comes to those who aide and abet criminals, I'll still speak out about that too. As for ring leaders, I think it's clear which nation's citizens you prefer over your own, and are more than willing to try to silence your fellow citizens in the support of them.

It isn't working Ben.

95% of the homicide warrents in Los Angeles County target illegal immigrants Ben. Do you have as much sympathy for the dead and their loved ones as you do for your beloved illegal aliens?

I'm sure you will continue to throw your trash up on the board. And the xenophobes and poorly informed will be want to believe it.

The problem with you Ben, is that you will not accept the information that is right in front of your face. Look, you don't want to believe it, you have determined that you will not believe it, and at this point I think you're incapable of coming to grips with it.

But those who inform themselves on the issue will know it is mis-info.

Those who inform themselves will use the links at the later part of the thread to read for themselves. Unlike you they will determine that 95% percent of outstanding homicde warrants in a city the size of Los Angeles is significant. Unlike you they will deterimine that 66% of felony warrants oustanding in a city the size of Los Angeles is significant.
More importantly, those who are creating policy and legislation will be using the facts, not your mis-info.

More importantly, those who have read this thread will realize that one of us is capable of owning up to spreading false numbers by accident, and another of us was pefectly willing to spread mis-information once the falicy of that information had been brought to their attention.

Since you're such a strong believer in stats, let me ask you this question Ben. First I'll lay the groundwork. Certain wasps and birds are common the central part of our nation. If a statistical map were made to represent where those bird or wasps could only be found, it would only show them to be in the central part of our nation.

Let's say you live in Southern California and go out to your garage and find some of the wasps or birds there, that should only be found in the central part of our nation. Here's the question. Are those wasps or birds actually there?

Everyone who might be making policy regarding those wasps or birds would have been operating under false pretenses.

Well guess what, we have an inordinate amount of illegal immigrants in our jail systems and 95% of the outstanding homide warrants target them. Sixty-six percent of the outstanding felony warrants in Los Angeles target them as well.

Ben, if you get stung by a wasp that statisticly shouldn't be in your garage, please don't let that stop you from seeking the proper medical attention. By the same standard, I won't let your statistics stop me from trying to get our illegal immigrant situation addressed in a manner that will not validate illegal and criminal behavior.

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