Darwin smacked in new U.S. poll (69% of Americans Want alternate theories allowed in class)

No. I won't say it. You can't make me beg. No matter how much I want to know . . .

Oh, all right. Pretty please?

[circa 1990] there is no scientific evidence that points to the existence of the Wollemi pine...

[circa 2006] there is no scientific evidence that points to the intelligent design of life.

[circa 2006] there is no scientific evidence of the existence of the legendary island of Kopodopodos.

That should be a problem to you ONLY if it ruins YOUR relationship.

Otherwise, the problem is between that other individual and his Creator.

"It appears that you have done some reading of the creationist sources but have not ventured to consult scientific sources that refute your conceptions. I'll do what little I can to give you information you may not have."

I have read scientific sources, too, but what was asked for was evidence against evolution, so that was what I mentioned.

"Once an additional feature is added it may change its function over a number of generations during which time its appearance may also change in step with the changing function. This is observed in simple adaptation."

Can you give an example? I can't think of any part of a human to have changed functions over the generations. Why do we still have appendixes if they dont do anything?

"First off, there are very few if any organisms that have not changed. Even those extant organisms that we have records extending back millions of years for are not the same as they were at a given time in their history.

The very basis of selection is change - if the environment changes the organism will change as long as its current adaptive personality does not work well in the new environment.

Some environments have changed very little, such as oceanic vents and sulfur pools near volcanic vents. Animals well adapted to those ecologies are affected less by environmental based selection but are still open to genetic drift and other forms of selection such as sexual selection (only if a sexually reproducing organism). If the organism is not prone to those other types of selection then a stable environment will not select out any but deleterious changes. In this case selection is actually acting to keep the organism the same."

So you believe that evolution is not guided in any way, that evolution occurs over time when an animal's body adapts to a changing climate? So if a polar bear were put in a desert (along with other polar bears to mate w/, etc) after a long time the bear would not have fur anymore?

What about animals that have things they dont seem to need, like Penguins. They cant fly, but still have wings.

And why does evolution take millions of years to occur? Does the DNA decide for itself that changes to the body need to be made? how is that determined? If the parent polar bears lived all their lives in a hot climate, why is not the children born without fur since the parents didnt need it?

"As far as changing from single celled to multi-celled organisms such as humans, natural selection is not alone. Such things as drift and a number of other selection forces are also at work. "

can you specify? and what is drift?

"Mutations occur in all replications, this is shown in virii and bacteria as well as in humans and other animals. The vast majority of mutations are neutral either because they affect a non-coding section of the genome or the change expressed by the mutated gene is invisible to selection. This means that selection does not select for or against the change. "

you speak of selection as if its some kind of intelligent force. If itelligence has a method to what it does, such as winnowing away negative traits in order to help animals adapt, doesnt this prove the ID theory true?

"My wife is waving at me to put the computer down so if you want I will attempt to answer your other points tomorrow."

LOl, are you standing up holding the computer?

By the way, what about the missing links? No evidence connecting lesser life forms with humans has ever been found, aside from "Lucy", which is either some sort of ancient ape, from what I've read (bones are similar to chimp), or the Lucy body was made from a varied bunch of bones from a variety of sources. Other skeletons such as "Java Man", "Peking Man", "Bog Man" etc have been found, but these have the same problems as the Lucy, either they are moneys of som sort and not human, or they are fabricated and not real, or they are newer than some ancient human remains.

"Before I answer some of your questions I will mention that evolution does not state that something comes from nothing. "

Yes, but scientific theories related to and extrapolated from the T of E , like the Big Bang theory, so say something came from nothing, or simply ignore the issue of where everything came from.

Also, there are some animals that defy evolution:

I found these on a website that has evidence against evolution and copied and pasted, hope you dont mind.

"The Giraffe

This animal's long neck needs a powerful heart to pump blood all the way to the brain. By rights the blood flow should blow its brains out when it bends to drink water, but the long-necked animal has a delicate series of spigots and a sponge that dissipate and absorb the rush of blood. How could that evolve? He needs all these parts there all the time, or he is dead."

"The Beaver

Beavers require special equipment because they are air-breathing mammals that spend a great deal of time in water.4

The beaver has special valves in its ears and nose. When it dives below the water these valves automatically close so that no water can enter. When the animal resurfaces, the valves reopen and it breathes again.4

Beaver's eyelids are transparent, so they can close their eyes underwater and still see extremely well. These transparent eyelids also protect their eyes from waterborne irritants.4

During winter, beavers must feed on the bark of trees they have cut and stored in the autumn, using their specially designed, self-sharpening front incisors.4

The beavers collect the young trees (usually one to two inches in diameter) for food, cut them to suitable lengths and then transport them, by holding them in their teeth, to their underwater cache, forcing the branches into the mud at the bottom of the pond.4

Beavers can gain direct underwater access to the cache of sticks they have stored under the water when ice covers the pond in winter and this is their only available food. They can chew the sticks without water entering their mouths, because they have fur mouth flaps between their front incisors and their rear molar teeth, that are set considerably further back. These two folds of skin, one on each side of the mouth, meet behind the incisors and seal off the rest of the mouth.4

The beaver's large paddle-shaped tail, which has a scale-like skin covering it, is used as a rudder when it swims; especially important when the animal is swimming with a branch in its mouth. The tail must compensate for any uneven drag from the branch, thus the tail is often held at an angle for accurate steering.4

To facilitate swimming, the rear feet of the beaver are large and webbed like a duck's feet, The two inner claws of each foot have split toenails, which the beaver uses as a comb to groom itself and oil its fur.4

Beavers use their smaller, unwebbed front paws to carry mud and other materials, and to dig canals which they use as a means of transporting wood and also as a means of quick escape from predators.4

A beaver's fur must be oiled to prevent water reaching its skin. The oil is provided from two large glands filled with a rich, thick, deep yellow oily liquid. The beaver spreads this oil on its fur for waterproofing. The oil, along with its two layers of fur, are so effective that water rarely reaches the skin. A layer of fat beneath the skin gives further protection against the cold.4

A beaver's lungs and liver allow for the storage of more air and oxygenated blood. This lets him swim submerged for almost a half-mile or more. Also, a beaver's heart beats more slowly when it dives, in order to conserve oxygen, and the blood is restricted to the tremities while the vital supply to the brain remains normal.4

Beavers construct dams that may be hundreds of meters long. Construction of the dam is done by cutting down trees and shrubs, dragging each piece to the dam-site, and laying them in the water parallel to the stream (end facing upstream). When the beaver's pond floods, if there is enough time, the beaver engineers a spillway to relieve pressure, then fixes it after the water subsides.4

Beaver lodges are built with sticks, and sealed from the cold with mud except for the center to allow for some ventilation. Access is only from underwater, with more than one entry in case of the need to escape.4

Such variety of essential equipment could not have evolved over time by chance and selection. All of the beaver's equipment must be present and fully functional in the animal from the beginning for it to survive its semi-aquatic lifestyle."

"The Black and Yellow Garden Spider

How does evolution explain the complicated ability of one spider to produce different types of webbing for different purposes and even in different colors? And how does it explain the presence of an "egg tooth" in a baby spider? Where does its special molting fluid come from, and how does the spider know what to do with it and when to use it? Using the fluid too soon or too late is fatal!"

"The Bombardier Beetle

This beetle is like a six-legged tiny tank. It defends itself by mixing chemicals that explode; firing through them through twin tail tubes that can swivel like gun turrets. The bubbling liquid that shoots out at 212 degrees Fahrenheit is enough to deter most predators.39

Slow motion photography revealed that the beetle actually lets go with a stream of up to 1,000 little explosions. Together they are enough to discourage would-be attackers while preventing the small defender from being blasted off the ground.39

There was simply no way the Bombardier Beetle could have evolved its sophisticated defense system over time, adding swiveling "gun barrels" or its "repeater" firing mechanism at different stages. It needed them all in one package, at the same time.39

A beetle that blew itself up would not be around to develop a more refined firing system. A beetle that could not keep the enemy in firing range would not survive to work on more maneuverable firepower. No slow, gradual process could produce this beetle."

"The Angler Fish

The Angler Fish lives more than a mile deep in ocean water. On her forehead the female has a "fishing rod" tipped with an lighted "artificial worm" which she dangles over her mouth to attract her next meal. This cold light displays highly advanced technology. A compound called Luciferin is oxidized with the help of an enzyme scientists named Luciferase, and this reaction produces cold light.1

It is difficult for the male and female to find each other in the darkness of the deep, so the eggs of the female float up through a mile of ocean to the surface where they form a jelly-like mass and then hatch. The young fish, male and female, grow and mature in the surface waters. At a certain point in their development, the male finds a female and bites and holds on to her abdomen. Soon the tissues of the female grow into and attach to the mouth tissues of the male, and the female drops to the bottom of the ocean carrying her parasite male with her for life.1

Unlike other fish, the Angler fish does not have a swim bladder - an air sac to provide buoyancy and to prevent sinking. Another feature of the deep sea Angler is its special body, which is designed to prevent crushing. A pressure of over 2,000 pounds per square inch is exerted on he body of the fish at one mile deep. It survives this great pressure with no problem.1

If the first Anglers were surface fish and lost their air bladders, and then sank to the bottom of the sea, they would have been crushed. Dead animals don't evolve any further.1

Why doesn't the female chase the male away when he bites her abdomen? What possible evolutionary mechanism enables the male's circulatory system to merge with the female's? And from what creature did this peculiar fish evolve? Evolution has no answers."

"The Incubator Bird

The three to four pound Megapode or "incubator bird" (brush turkey) of Australia is unique among birds. All birds use body heat to incubate their eggs except the incubator bird.3

Instead, they pile up great heaps of debris which serve as incubators; the warmth of the fermenting compost provides the heat. Some incubator birds use the heat produced by volcanic action.3

After testing the nest to be sure it is adequate for incubating her eggs, the female lays 20 to 35 eggs at the rate of one egg every three days for up to seven months. As many as 16 eggs can exist in a normal mound at any one time. Each egg weighs about a half a pound and is as large as an ostrich egg - a tremendous amount of work for a three to four pound hen. Upon completion of her laying task, she leaves the nest, never to return and takes no part in the incubation and raising of her chicks.3

At this point the male begins to perform his job of managing the incubation of the deeply buried eggs. For incubator bird chicks to survive they require a precise temperature of exactly 91°F. It is the male's responsibility to ensure that the temperature of the mound will not vary more then one degree on either side of 91°F!3

Some scientists think the bird's thermometer is in its beak. Others believe its tongue can distinguish 91°F and a few tenths of a percent above and below 91°F.3

To maintain the temperature, the male digs down into the nest and checks the temperature. On hot days, he may pile extra sand on top of the nest to shield it from the sun. He may even rearrange the entire pile of rotting leaves and grasses several times a day.3

On cooler days, the male megapodes will push material off the top of the nest to permit more sunlight to penetrate the decaying organic material. Or, to keep the humidity at 99.5% around the eggs, he may dig conical holes toward the eggs to get more moisture deeper into the nest. Keeping Seymour writes: "This process is very precise: one centimeter of fresh material added to the mound can increase core temperature about 1½°C."3

The father provides fresh air for the chicks as he daily digs down to the eggs. To allow the chick to get air inside the shell, its egg has thousands of tiny holes (called pores) in its thick shell. These are shaped like conical ice cream cones with the narrowest part of the cone toward the chick. As the chick grows it cannot get enough air through the bottom of the cone so it begins to remove the inside layer of the shell. As it thins out the shell the holes get bigger (moving up the cone) and the chick can get more air.3

Unlike other birds, the chicks are ready to fly with full feathers as soon as they break out of the egg. When they hatch, they lie on their backs and dig up until they break out of the mound, a task that takes up to three days.3

Once the chicks dig out of the nest, they are on their own. They are not fed or cared for by either parent. When they are mature, the male will build a huge nest as an incubator for his mate's eggs. He will build this huge, precise mound without any instruction from his parents. This is not learned behavior.! How does the brush turkey know the importance of 91°F?3

How could the incubator bird even exist? How could a bird evolve the ability to precisely measure temperatures with its beak or tongue? Evolution says nothing is evolved until it is needed. How would the incubator bird know it needed the ability to keep its eggs at 91°F? The chicks would get too hot or too cold and die before he figured it out. And dead creatures do not evolve into higher forms.3"

There is also info about the woodpecker, chicken's egg, if you want that too.

"Not only do we know evolution happened, we can observe it happening today. We know evolution happened, and we have a pretty good idea how it happened too."

Well, most people believe evolution happened. We dont *know* for certain what happened way back what, though we can guess, or try to figure it out.

Where is evolution happening today?

Also, if you want to respond to some of my points in #664 feel free :)

see #664

"I understand that you are bent out of shape because your game of 'gotcha' didn't work out the way you would have liked."

1.There is no game of "gotcha"

2. I was simply providing evidence I used before, which was good evidence. But I guess you dont believe in ever repeating anything.

3. The post wasnt addressed to you.

4. It's none of your business anyway.

5. SO chaw on that! :)

So let's see, there are cubic kilometers of rock we haven't dug into yet, and in that rock we might find fossils that refute evolution...

I mentioned to Fester that there are no fish fossils in the Burgess shale, his reply was

"How much of the Burgess shale has been studied?"

"Well, most people believe evolution happened. We dont *know* for certain what happened way back what, though we can guess, or try to figure it out."

We don't anything for absolute certain in science, but the fact that evolution has happened is one of the best supported claims in science.

"Where is evolution happening today?"

Where isn't it?

"Also, if you want to respond to some of my points in #664 feel free :)"

Later.

I love the huffing and puffing from the aethiests on anything questioning Darwin's "Theory".

What of the theists and atheists who do not "huff and puff" over such matters, but instead respond to common creationist falsehoods with rational explanations?

See, that's what I'm talking about. Is it really rational scientific thought process to begin the conversation by proclaiming the other party "false"? Well, given what I see of the scientific world and its rice bowls, it probably is more common than not.

I mentioned to Fester that there are no fish fossils in the Burgess shale, his reply was "How much of the Burgess shale has been studied?"

Who cares about fish? There could be unicorns in there!

No, I am saying that in 1990 there was no scientific evidence that the Wollemi pine was still extant.

This is what usually happens when folks jump into a tete-a-tete that has been ongoing for a few hours.... I make the same mistake my self sometimes....

I will at the risk of being redundant (spam.. hee hee) go over my point again. I was somewhat tersely chastised in the recent past for providing evidence that the Wollemi pine was declared extinct by scientists. I was informed in so many words the "few scientists" would ever say that the Wollemi pine was extinct, they instead would say "thought extinct" or "believed to be extinct".

Whilst reading early (very early) on in this thread, I noted a "scientist" posting unequivocally that there is "no scientific evidence that points to an intelligent design of life". There was no qualifying "we have found no evidence" or "we believe there to be no evidence"... And it just so happened to be the same poster who taught me part 1.

My point being, that just because someone had not found or knowingly observed a Wollemi pine doesn't mean that evidence of its existence was not available. It just meant they "thought" none existed or they couldn't find any. Oh, and btw, they were mistaken weren't they? So when said scientist makes an unqualified claim that "there is no evidence" it gives me pause as to whether I was being jerked around in my first lesson or am I being jerked around now....

I was simply seeking clarity and consistency from my teachers....