Waco, The rules of engagement.

waco93 ^

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

This is a new channel on Dish Network. They play Ducumentaries 24/7. This is the first time I have seen "Waco, The rules of engagement.

[jazusamo]

I thank you for the info. The piece cited that none died from CS, only that cyanide was present in bloodstream from the gas. Carbon monoxide poisoning and asphyxiation killed them. I'm sure there were many other gasses from the smoke in their blood.

As far as the FBI deliberately murdering them, I'll never believe that. Had that been the case, the one woman would not have been saved by them, against her own will I might add.

[Riley]

Agreed- I ate enough of the stuff when I was in. The assertion that CS is a nerve agent is nonsense.

[verity]

Incoherent rambling.

[sgtyork]

Yeah, dropped my cap in it once. It was irritating;-}

[brazzaville]

Good morning.

No surrender necessary. I said that I wasn't "implying" anything. I will state clearly that any government will do anything to it's people if it chooses to do so, as history has shown us.

Ruby Ridge and Waco are only more recent examples.

"I believe in most cases it was done from lack of enough information, usually having to do with something new."

There was nothing new about Lon Horiuchi shooting Vicki Weaver in the head and Randy Weaver in the back, or in him or another HRT sniper shooting an unarmed Davidian on the top of the water tower at Waco. Helicopters used to fire down through the roof of a building is an old technique.

I may have been too harsh, too. It's possible the people who burned Mt Carmel were merely being incompetent. I guess plenty of people think so.

Like I said, no need to surrender. Exchanges like this are what the FreeRepublic is about. We all learn from them.

Michael Frazier

[Palladin]

Quite an eyeopener, isn't it?

God forbid we should ever have another Clinton Administration.

[jazusamo]

"Dust in grain elevators for example, is not to be exposed to open flame as I under stand correctly. I am not sure why the suspended particulate in CS would behave differently; I would expect it to be a hazard in a fire situation, as well."

All dusts pose a potential explosive hazard when suspended in air. After the initial explosion, the dust hazard is gone and a fire continues burning in other flammable material in many instances. I don't personally know about the specifics of CS powder but I would think the initial blast would consume it. In any dust explosion the concentration of dust and air has to be in the proper proportions.

[Riley]

If 'Rules of Engagement' is the same film that I saw some years ago, the things that jumped out about it to me were:

1. During the pre-raid investigation, agents of the ATF stopped at a Waco gun store asking questions about the Davidian's weapons. The proprieter phoned Koresh while they were there and told him about it. He invited them out to inspect any weapons that they had concerns about. They declined and left the store.

2. A potentially crucial piece of evidence about who opened fire first- the front door- disappeared from government custody after the raid. Examination of the door could possibly have told us a lot about who fired what at whom.

3. There was FLIR video that showed armed men sneaking around the building, firing into it, operating in the cover of the armored vehicles, while the structure was on fire. It seemed to suggest that people trying to flee the flames were being fired on.

My recollection is hazy- but these are things that stuck in my mind as having been presented by the film.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"This the first I have ever heard of CD having any 'cyanide content', whatsoever."

You answer that one yourself in the next sentence. It isn't that there is cyanide in the powder, but that chemical complexes can become something else when exposed to environmental changes. When I was trained in it's use, I was told that it was lethal in closed spaces but nothing about the effect of heat. I didn't care at the time because of who I was using it on. My RF/PFs didn't like using it one bit.

Mt Carmel was a firetrap. There were even hay bales stacked inside, adding to the fuel provided by the wooden building and the people outside knew it. The engineer vehicles that poked holes in the walls and injected the massive amounts of gas created the perfect environment for a holocaust.

I had sort of buried this event. Now I'll have to do so again.

Michael Frazier

[SUSSA]

I'm not an expert so I don't know if you are right or the links are right. It seems to me that if it were as harmless as some people say, it wouldn't be banned for warfare by the Paris treaty that the U.S. is a party to. But the government has done dumber things so I’m not sure what to believe about the gas.

[SUSSA]

As you so rightly said earlier, we all are free to have our own beliefs. This divides many people and you make your point well, but I remain unconvinced, just as you do.

I do appreciate that you aren't one of the people who says they got what they deserved and good riddance. I also appreciate the civil tone of your posts.

It’s good to discuss something controversial, have some areas where we remain at odds, and not have the discussion degenerate into a bash fest. Thanks for an enjoyable discussion.

[wideminded]

There were no flammable gases pumped into the compound.

The size and rapidity of spread of the fire indicates to me that Koresh had a hand in burning the place down. Although the government perhaps could have resolved the situation without attacking the compound, it is not plausible that politicians would intentionally choose to burn up a bunch of kids on live TV.

[Riley]

The stuff makes you really want to be somewhere else, and is demonstrably worse in enclosed spaces, but is a nonlethal agent. Lots of Freepers have had to deal with it in the service. Probably lots of DUers too- from having the cops shoot it at them :-)

Basically what happenes on exposure is that your eyes hurt and water, your sinuses produce yuck like you've never experienced before, and it gets in your mouth and lungs. You cough and it causes a burning sensation in the lungs. Anyplace that is moist or sweaty on your body will have a burning sensation- especially the mucous membranes. When you get out of the cloud, it is important to keep from rubbing your eyes with your hands- which will be covered in it. I found that I had eyelashes that were thick enough at the time that I could squint through them and keep my eyes free of most of the stuff. Being able to see seemed to go a long way toward warding off the panicky reaction that some people have in it.

It's an annoyance when you're young and in good shape. If your lung capacity is diminished for some reason, you're very young or old, or you are sick, I can see that it might have a more pronounced effect.

[LA Woman3]

http://www.waco93.com/index.html

[SUSSA]

What happens when it's heated? Most sources that mention heating it say it breaks down and releases cyanide. Have you ever been around this stuff in a real hot fire?

I’m trying to get hold of a friend who is a retired Philly fireman who has hazmat training to ask him, but can’t get him on the phone.

[Riley]

It gets heated when dispersed from a CS grenade. I have been around that- but I'd want to defer to someone with a solid grounding in chemistry to determine exactly what happens to it chemically under different heating scenarios (grenade dispersal vs. open flames, for example).

I think we have a chemist or two around here that somebody could ping for an opinion.

[Riley]

Also- I have been told by firefighters that burning plastic releases cyanides, so who knows. Maybe cyanide and related compunds are more common that one might expect in structure fires.

[Natural Law]

I've used CS for similar purposes and the secondary properties of the material and delivery systems cannot be ignored or excused. CS agents are converted to a gaseous form by a high temperature combustion process. The intense heat has incendiary affects and the combustion produces toxins both from the housings and the combustion of any materials in contact with the combustion. Those trained in the usage, even if not knowledgeable in the chemistry, have to know this for personal safety if nothing else. Claims that the BATF and FBI were victims of events beyond their control are pure Bravo Sierra.

[SUSSA]

That could be. I just don't know and can't find a good answer. Maybe a FReeper fireman will jump in and give us the low-down.

Thanks for your input.

[brazzaville]

Good afternoon.
"The size and rapidity of spread of the fire indicates to me that Koresh had a hand in burning the place down."

"it is not plausible that politicians would intentionally choose to burn up a bunch of kids on live TV."

What is it about the size and speed of the fires that indicates self immolation rather than the result of having a dangerous condition created by the FBI?

If you think government is above purposely doing what we saw on TV, you might consider changing you FReeper name.

Michael Frazier