The Forget Hell! crowd

Townhall.com ^ | February 27, 2006 | W. Thomas Smith, Jr.

[SuzyQ2]

I love history. I’m proud of my Southern heritage. But for me to be angry to the point of protesting a moment in Southern history that happened nearly a century-and-a-half ago would be just, well, nonsensical. And would in some ways tarnish that heritage.

[stand watie]

you're WELCOME to disagree.

it's called "freedom of expression".

free dixie,sw

[Flavius Josephus]

The 'killing fields of the Superdome'?

That has to go down as one of the most egregious examples of overblown rhetoric that I have ever read. Why should anyone take someone who would say such a thing seriously at all?

That's a good question. Here's another one. Why does the professional "angry black" faction seem so surprised that when they call whites "evil, racist motherf***ers", they don't get any cooperation out of those they're insulting?

[PistolPaknMama]

were we to do that to our common foes today, the media and most politicians would howl and we would be scorned by history

Makes Gitmo look like the Annual Whitehouse Easter Egg Roll.

[old gringo]

you don't know what the hell you are talking about.sherman is called kerosene billy in the south.he burnt my grandfather's house and everything else standing,my grand father was a confederate soldier he lived to be 109 i knew him well.have you ever talked to a confederate soldier?

[wardaddy]

when I was a boy in the 60s and 70s, there was no talk like this

it all pretty much got a foothold in the 80s

and all boils down to neverending racial redress meant to deflect the true more painful causation than to admit problems that are more self inflicted than not

[wardaddy]

BTTT to your posts

[wardaddy]

You can disagree all you want but even most of Sherman's supporters wince at his punitive actions on the South

the war had lasted as long as it had by 1864 because of Southern military leadership in Virginia and the ineptness of most Union generals prior to Grant.

not because the South was as entrenched emotionally or materially as Imperial Japan.

poor comparison.

Sherman wanted victory period and he knew that breaking the backs of the populace was easier done and more effective than sporadic field victories especially while folks like Lee and Forrest kept it up

there is no evidence whatsoever that the aged, infirm , prepubescent or female populace left in the South by the time of his excesses was prepared to fight a guerrilla war to the last man standing as the Japanese were.

Sherman is on record in his letters admitting to allowing excesses to break the political will of the South....because he feared it. Not to spare his men.

If he and Grant were so worried about their own men, they would have allowed prisoner exchanges after they knew that a starving South would not be too good a place for their prisoners...but they did not.

Casualties attrition was part Of Grant and Sherman's overall strategy something that distinguished them both from prior Union leaders like McClellan for example....

now as for Truman....you'll get no argument from me. the Japs started it and they had it coming.....no need to rationalize all that for me.

it amazes me that conservatives would today seek to glorify Machiavellian scorched earth in America between kinsman as a good thing.....that whole damned war was deplorable and cost a lot of good lives that might have changed history

now i look around at my decaying culture and wonder if we deserve folks dying for us

[wardaddy]

It is not very accurate to compare political parties from the 1860s and today though folks can't resist.

The Republicans of today are far more like the socially moderate to conservative Democrats of the 1860s (they would be more like Whigs actually and may suffer the same fate if they don't nut up)

And the Radical Republicans that were so "popular" in extreme Northeast TN were much more like today's social engineering, heavy handed federal government Democrats than they are to modern Republicans.....not even close.

But like I said, the comparison is very tenuous not matter how you slice it...

I have a family mountain home at Grandfather Mountain and drive thru Carter county every couple of months....i always notice the great irony that Southern Independence spirit is much greater there with flags banners, and bumperstickers than anywhere I go except what's left of Dixie Florida.

Your Union ancestors would not be happy....

Regards....

[buck61]

Sherman, gottaer dune.

[reagandemocrat]

West Virginia wasn't a state until 1963--

[rustbucket]

What Sherman and grant did was to bring the level of the war up to the point where it would break the Southerners will to fight and limit the loss of union lives.

Like the heroic 18-month bombardment of civilians in Charleston?

Mrs. Hawthorne

In the afternoon, between four and five o’clock, the enemy again opened on the city. Sixteen shells were fired. One white woman, a Mrs. Hawthorne, was severely wounded by a fragment of shell striking her on the left side of the head. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 2, 1863)

>Mrs. Hawthorne, the woman who was wounded Tuesday afternoon, was still alive up to seven o’clock Wednesday evening. Dr. Frost is the attending physician. Very little hopes were entertained for her recovery, as (the left side?) of the head is fractured, and the ----- (can’t read). (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 3, 1863)

Mrs. Hawthorne, Number 70 Church street, wounded by shell in right side, and died six weeks after (Official Records, Series 1, Volume 28, page 683)

Church in danger

Whereas the Congregation of the St. John’s Evangelical Lutheran Church are prevented from worshipping in their Sanctuary in consequence of the missiles of destruction which are being thrown into their vicinity by our remorseless and infidel foe; Therefore,

Resolved, That the above named Congregation be most earnestly and affectionately invited to worship with us in the Morris-street Lutheran Church, as long as their necessities or inclination may require. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 19, 1863)

Firemen, William Knighton, Miss Plane, John Doscher, Rebecca (slave), and others

Charleston, Dec 25 – The enemy commenced shelling the city last night, keeping up a steady fire which is still going on at 9 o’clock this morning. A fire broke out about 9 o’clock, destroying some ten or twelve buildings, and causing a few casualties. Heavy firing is heard in the direction of Stone. The shelling of the city has continued with only an interval of an hour at noon. One white man was mortally and a white woman slightly wounded by shells.

Three firemen were badly wounded by the falling of walls of burnt buildings, and some eight or ten others were slightly wounded. Affairs at Sumter remain quiet. (The Memphis Daily Appeal [Atlanta, GA]. December 28, 1863)

Mr. John Doscher, of German Fire Company, wounded at fire of December 25, and since died; Rebecca, slave of Mr. Lindsay, Numbers 5. Beaufain street, killed instantly by shell. At the fire of December 25, there were 1 fireman, 1 policeman, and 4 soldiers slightly wounded. (Official Records, Series 1, Volume 28, page 683, Report of Major Henry Bryan, Assistant Inspector-General, C. S. Army, Charleston, January 6, 1864)

The gunners always increased their rate of fire when they saw a blaze, but in spite of the shells bursting near their engine, the firemen worked uninterruptedly. Four firemen and four soldiers were injured in fighting the fire, and a little further up the street, an 83-year old man had his leg shot off at the knee. It was a memorable Christmas night… (The Siege of Charleston, 1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, p 257-258, December 25, 1863)

An old gentleman named William Knighton, 83 years of age, was sitting by the fire on his hearth, had his right leg shot off below the knee, His sister-in-law -- a Miss Plane – also sitting by the fire, had her right foot severely crushed by a fragment of shell. [corner Meeting and Market – from OR reference above] (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 28, 1863).

Mr. William Knighton mentioned in our report of casualties caused by the enemy’s fire on Friday, has since died from the effects of his wounds. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 29, 1863)

Miss Plane, the lady reported as injured from a shell on Christmas morning, died on Wednesday from the effects of the injuries received. (Charleston Daily Courier, Dec 31, 1863, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Jan 17, 1864)

German man wounded

One man, a German, whose name we could not learn, was wounded in the right hand by a stone from the middle of the street, torn up by a shell on Wednesday morning. (Charleston Daily Courier, Jan 14, 1864).

School Children

The St. Philip Street school-house remained untouched. A frame house adjoining it has nevertheless been hit by one of the shells, and fears were entertained for the safety of the school-house. Shells were flying round it constantly during the bombardment. The teachers, however, still keep the school open and the little girls and boys attended it in great numbers very regularly. (From The New York Herald, as reported in The Daily Picayune, Feb 12, 1864)

Mrs. Kennedy

One white woman, a Mrs. Kennedy, was seriously wounded in the leg about three o’clock Thursday morning. She was asleep when a shell entered her house and in passing through, shattered the bed posts, the pieces striking her on the leg, fracturing the bone. It was believed that amputation would be necessary. (Charleston Courier as reported in The Memphis Daily Appeal [Atlanta, GA]. March 8, 1864)

Nine killed. Men, women and children wounded

There have been lately two large fires in Charleston, caused by our shells. Deserters say the city is now divided into two districts, viz: 'in range' and 'out of range,' and that no other expression is used. Nine persons were killed a few nights since, and a large number wounded, including men, women, and children, and twelve homes burned to the ground. (Washington Republican, Feb 26, 1864, as reported in The Daily Picayune March 11, 1864)

Firemen injured

…the engine of the Phoenix Company was struck by a shell and blown to atoms, injuring several firemen (The Siege of Charleston, 1861-1865 by E. Milby Burton, p 259, from Schirmer Diary, May 13, 1864)

Willie, between 12 and 13 years old

… the only casualty was "a white lad named Willie, between twelve and thirteen years old." (The Bombardment of Charleston 1863-1865 by W. Chris Phelps, page 101, reporting from the Charleston Daily Courier of June 3, 1864)

Colored woman killed

The firing since our last has been about as usual. Eighty-six shots have been fired from six P. M. Monday evening to six P. M. Tuesday, at Fort Sumter, and twenty-nine shots at the city, most of which were time fuse shells. A colored woman, named Adstine Rostersats (? hard to read the name) was mortally wounded about 12 M. Tuesday, by the fragment of a fuse shell, and died about four o’clock Tuesday evening. (Charleston Daily Courier, Aug 31, 1864).

Child’s arm shattered

Forty-two shells have been fired at the city since our last report. A child’s arm was badly shattered by one of these missiles. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 2, 1864)

Man and two children wounded

In the city three persons, one man and two children, were wounded by pieces of shell. One child was severely wounded. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 9, 1864)

Colored man killed

A colored barber named William, was struck in the head by a Parrott shell Friday morning and instantly killed. (Charleston Daily Courier, Sept 10, 1864)

Men and women wounded

During the twenty-four hours ending six o’clock Wednesday evening eighty-eight shots were reported fired into the city. A number of casualties occurred, but mostly from flying bricks or splinters.

Mr. A. W. Ladd was severely and dangerously wounded in the left shoulder by a fragment of shell, which exploded in the building where he was writing. Three other young men in the same room and building as Mr. Ladd, very narrowly escaped being killed. The shell passed through the desk of one (Mr. C. J. Porcher) just as he had risen to close a shutter of the window against the heat of the sun. It went under the desk, passing through the legs of Mr. W. Lambert, breaking the leg of the chair and leaving Mr. W with only a slight bruise on the ankle.

Another shell, which exploded in a building, wounded four females of the family of Mr. John Burkmyer, one of them seriously, breaking her collar bone, besides inflicting several slight bruises.

A man by the name of Collins, a laborer, had his leg taken off Wednesday evening by the explosion of a shell in the building in which he resided. (all above were from the Charleston Daily Courier of Sept 29, 1864)

On Charlotte Street, the Burckmyer family wasn’t as lucky. A shell entered their home wounding all five family members. (The Bombardment of Charleston 1863-1865 by W. Chris Phelps, page 120, about Sept. 29, 1864)

William Doran, lost arm, last casualty

… Mr William Doran … resided at present day 5 Bedon’s Alley, south of Broad Street in the "Shell District." … On the evening of February 14 [1865], as Doran was reaching out to strike a match on his dining room mantel, a shell passed through those walls and took off his extended right arm. (The Bombardment of Charleston 1863-1865 by W. Chris Phelps, page 131)

[reagandemo]

What the Hell did I say? I not once said that Sherman was right in what he did. I only said that he thought it was. As a Southern bred, and might add Confederate soldier descendant I do not condone what was done to the civilians by these men during the war. I however congratulate them for acting as they did after the war. A whole lot better than most of the North did as in CARPET BAGGERS. And you should have listened to my Grandfather talk about it too!

[Gordongekko909]

Thomas Sowell *PING*

FRmail me if you want on or off the Thomas Sowell Ping List.

[Gordongekko909]

Aaa! Misfire! Curse you, Mardi Gras spirit!

[NCSteve]

It was an interesting read anyway.

While I agree that the effigy hanging was pretty silly, the author is all wet nevertheless. The South will never forget.

[Dr._Joseph_Warren]

Retreating Confederates also have been said to have set fires in the city; burning any-and-everything they hoped the advancing Federals would not get their hands on.

Friend and historian, John Hammond Moore, states in his book, Columbia & Richland County, there were three primary fires started in the city. One when bails of cotton that had been placed in the center of a street were ignited, another that began in a row of brothels, and a third in the center of town.

At least they kept the Feds from getting their hands on the whores!! ;)

[wardaddy]

West Virginia wasn't a state until 1963--

I thought Hawaii was the last state to join the union?

i know what you meant..lol....those maps are modern comparisons tween red and blue the ...Dakotas, Minnesota nor Oklahoma weren't states either at that time

and I too appreciate Sherman's post war magnanimity

[af_vet_rr]

What should be noted is that after the war Sherman was one of the greatest friends of the South and was instrumental in giving pardons to Confederate soldiers mainly Robert E. Lee which he personally fought to have pardoned.

You have to remember two things - as you noted, Sherman was a friend of the South (and even helped found/run LSU before the War), and after the war was over, he was welcomed in the south - I believe the Mayor of Atlanta welcomed him 10 or 15 years later.

Also, Sherman's march wasn't as bad as it's been made out to believe. I've ran into people that would have you think he burned Georgia down, when that's far from what happened.

Furthermore, the hatred of Sherman has really only cropped up in the past two decades or so (back to the 80s). Easy to see this when you look at the literature produced before the 1970s/1980s, and after.

[Donald Meaker]

I disagree. The hate was there before reconstruction. That is why the South never treated black Union soldiers according to the customs of war. Rather a pity that the North caved, and treated Southern prisoners with a courtesy that was never reciprocated.

[Donald Meaker]

1863...