Bible-quoting science students on rise (USA spreads 'infectious diesease to UK)

#170 "HUH??? If this were true why would the Vatican numerous times state that current evolutionary theory is in line with the teachings of the Church? Why would the Vatican observatory be holding symposiums on Evolution if the theory is driven by Atheists? No offense but I think the Pope and the Vatican are much more in tune to what "atheist theory" is than you are."
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Let me help you out with past history of the Catholic church. Unfortunately history repeats itself and not always in positive ways. There is a push to conform to the "world" however God teaches something else and by no means is this pressure limited to the Catholic churches. Many churches are falling away as prophesied.

Rom.12:2

[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This verse today, could NEVER be truer:

Matt.7:7[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Truth is NEVER determined by numbers! NEVER!

As I mentioned earlier, many churches are falling away as prophesied:

2Thes.2:3

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Also:

2Tim.4:3

[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Conforming those "itching ears" to something other than what the Bible states, is most unwise. You would think that churches would have learned their lesson from the Galileo situation - but no! They still want to believe that fallible man "knows it all better and is wiser" than God. It's deajavu all over again! In the Garden of Eden the forbidden fruit was eaten because they wanted to be as wise as God or wiser. Nothing has changed with believing in evolution. Adam and Eve disobeyed Him.. They too wanted to be as wise if not wiser than God. They rejected His wisdom in disobeying. just as others today, claim "belief" but ridicule His account siding with man because they really want to believe man is wiser than God.

Some of us put our faith in God rather than fallible mortals. God cannot lie. Mankind does lie. It's just the way it is.

Tit.1:2

[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Rom.3:4

[4] God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

It is man that lies, not God. When it comes to the Bible and what He inspired others to write, what is written is true, ALL the time! What I often see is people claiming "I believe in Him ..." but for some reason, even though evolution has NOTHING in common with Christianity, they believe in evolution. You can't have it both ways. The order of evolution is all wrong compared to the Bible. God would never say "it was very good" to death and disease. Evolutionists claim people evolved from "apes" - by no stretch of the imagination, being "made in His image" do I consider God an "ape". This alone is a mockery of God and on and on it goes.

Let's look at Galileo for a moment. In July of 1609, Galileo Galileo encountered some stories that a "Dutchman" named Hans Lippershey, had invented a device that could magnify distant objects. Galileo became quite interested and built his own telescope. He used the scope to observe many things including the stars, moon, and planets. Because of his observations Galileo became convinced that the earth was actually moving. In 1633 Galileo was placed under house arrest by the Catholic church and secular authorities, for preaching and believing the heresy that the earth was round and our earth, orbits around the sun. The Catholic church saw that as a threat to some of their favorite dogmas, and by extension to their positions of power.

It makes one scratch their head, when as plain as the nose on your face, the Bible has ALWAYS stated the earth is round. I repeat, the Bible has ALWAYS stated this. ALWAYS! Translations and version vary on how they state it - round, circle and sphere as common translations of the Hebrew, however nowhere does the Bible state the earth is flat.

One can't help but wonder why the Catholic church was so up in arms over Galileo UNLESS it was teaching something other than what the Bible clearly states. Next, is the obvious question of WHY weren't they teaching what the Bible obviously states? The church is supposed to be teaching what the Bible states, right?

Let's take a peek over at Isaiah.

Isaiah 40:22

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Christians, that know the Bible, would NEVER be so foolish to teach a "flat" earth. Clearly, in the Bible it states otherwise - that is IF you bother to read it and don't have a less than honorable agenda.

Another favorite Scripture twist is this:

Revelation 7:1

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

It is a metaphor representing the cardinal directions of north, south, east and west. This "language of appearance" is till used today. Bible writers also used that.

Job, one of the OLDEST books of the Bible states this:

Job 26:7

7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Again, what was the Catholic church thinking when objecting to Galileo? Galileo only reinforced what the Bible stated LONG AGO and rather CLEARLY. The earth is round and suspended on nothing.

Frankly I don't care what church was preaching what. It is the Bible that is ALWAYS true regardless of what ANY mere fallible mortal teaches. In short, I take God's Word over man's word anytime!

There are other references to a round earth in Proverbs and Job however Isaiah and what I referenced in Job, should be sufficient to get the point.

Interestingly, Jeffrey Burton Russell a professor of history at the University of California in Santa Barbara, says in his book, Inventing the Flat Earth (written for the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's journey to America in 1492) that through antiquity and up to the time of Columbus, "nearly unanimous scholarly opinion pronounced the earth spherical."

So did the Bible. SO again, the Catholic church should have EMBRACED Galileo not accused him of heresy or felt threatened - IF the Bible was their source of teachings. I can't emphasize enough that the earth being ROUND or SPHERE shaped has ALWAYS been in the Bible! Perhaps now you will better understand why Bible based Christians do not want to be aligned with other groups.

The bottom line is this - you are free to believe what ever you wish! God. Man. It's your choice. As you can see, throughout time, God and man are typically at ODDS and when that happens there are consequences.

so Hitler believed in evolution and used to try to justify the Holocaust, should we throw that up?

Examples like that can be thrown up about anything. Bringing up Jim Jones and Jonestown to represent Christians is easy too. And just as meaningless.

Consider this issue in another way.

I don't know you or anything about you so let me do some assuming to make my point. For the sake of this example, I hypothetically assume that you are HAPPILY married and LOVE your spouse and your spouse is HAPPILY married to you and LOVES you - all without reservation, or so YOU claim.

Next, your spouse is away traveling for long periods of time. You claim to miss your spouse and LOVE your spouse and HAPPILY married but you NEVER read the letters your spouse sends to you. How can that be with all you claim? Instead you listen to gossip that is not true about your beloved spouse. These gossipers HATE what you have. They despise seeing you so happy and in love with your spouse. They WANT your allegiance so they do and say ANYTHING to terminate that loving, happy personal relationship.

Friend, those "letters" I refer to are books of the Bible. The Bible is like a series of love letters to YOU. He loves YOU. He wants YOU to be happy. To know Him is to read the Bible and believe what He says not what others say. Through reading the Bible and heeding what He says you will be happy, feel loved and blessed through this personal relationship. He wants YOU to be in heaven forever with Him, however He leaves that as a choice! Coerced love is NOT love, hence why we are to make that choice as individuals.

Don't miss HEAVEN for the WORLD!

Thank you for the post.

There is one thing I am curious about. You mention Revelation 7:1 the metaphor representing the cardinal directions. Some people argue that the word "day" in Genesis is "symbolic" since science believes that the Universe and Earth were created over billions of years. I would imagine that there are people who take a dim view of this interpretation.

I understand your analogy (and yes I am married and happily so, I believe she feels the same way). I guess the question is do evolutionists and/or scientists purposely deceive people?

Let us assume for a moment you are correct so let's ignore evolutionary theory altogether and just look at the evidence. If man and all life was created in 6 days, then we should see the bones of modern humans (and all modern animals) appearing alongside the bones of dinosaurs . But the fossil record seems to not suggest that at all. Even with evolutionary theory thrown out, the fossil record seems to cause a dilemma in this regard.

Thank you for the post.

There is one thing I am curious about. You mention Revelation 7:1 the metaphor representing the cardinal directions. Some people argue that the word "day" in Genesis is "symbolic" since science believes that the Universe and Earth were created over billions of years. I would imagine that there are people who take a dim view of this interpretation.

You know, I prayed that you would receive my post in the right spirit. YOU made my day! Thank YOU.

People will argue that, however a study of the Hebrew corrects them. The Hebrew word "yom" when used in conjunction with day or a number of a day such as "day 1" ALWAYS means a literal 24 hour day!

If you read through my example, look at the ORDER. Also notice this is the precise order needed to sustain life!

My examples:

Gen.1

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[3] And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

[4] And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[6] And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

[7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

[8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

[9] And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

[10] And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

[11] And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

[12] And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

[13] And the evening and the morning were the third day.

[14] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

[15] And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

[16] And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[17] And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

[18] And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

[19] And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

[20] And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

[21] And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

[22] And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

[23] And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

[24] And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

[25] And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen.2

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Why do you think we have a seven day week?

As people do more knowledgeable about objective science and how it compliments the Bible, they want it taught in public schools. I thank God nearly every day that we can send our daughter to a Christian school where both sides are taught and how science by no means undermines the Bible - it reinforces it. Evolution has become a religion without the Judeo Christian God. Evolution has nothing in common with Christianity. If you are familiar with evolution, compare it to the order of what God states - no comparison.

You are correct about that. The order stated in Genesis is right on.

I was reading your courteous dialog here about the the Creation account in Genesis and remembered this recent article about the age of the universe. I don't recall if either of you were on it,(and I don't really have the time at the moment to peruse the whole thread, so if you saw it, forgive me) but if you hadn't I thought it might be of interest concerning the whole 6 days of creation issue. I found it fascinating, especially at the end when the author ties it all together because of what science knows about time and it's passage in relation to speed.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1576941/posts

LOL The whole 'spreading an infectious disease' comment shows the mindset.

Can you replicate the Earth revolving around the Sun in a lab?

Nope. Didn't think so. But I'm pretty sure that the Earth revolving around the Sun (even though planetary motion is still a theory) has been accepted as a fact.

Oh, yeah, not to mention... I don't believe any scientist in the world has a theory that a man was born from a monkey or a bird from a dinosaur.

"The vast majority of my students now believe in creationism," she said, "and these are thinking young people who are able and articulate and not at the dim end at all."

She needs to get a clue.

Speaking of the British, one of the most intelligent people of the 20th Century, Malcolm Muggeridge, had this to say about Darwinism:

"I myself am convinced that the theory of evolution, especially the extent to which it's been applied, will be one of the great jokes in the history books in the future. Posterity will marvel that so flimsy and dubious an hypothesis could be accepted with the incredible credulity that it has."

...and this about British public education:

...education has replaced institutional religion as a fount of hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness...

Are there any other branches of science you think are false besides evolution?

Not "false," but I think science would benefit from less arrogance and cock-suredness. In other words, some humility, and an acceptance that not everything can be explained by a scientific theory would do well.

In the field of astronomy, Allan Sandage, of the most preeminent astronomers and cosmologists of the last 50 years, had this to say: "Astronomy is an impossible science. It's a wonder we know anything at all." This kind of humility, stemming from the wonder of the mystery of nature and the universe, and a healthy recognition of man's finiteness, seems almost nonexistent among Darwinists.

Well-said.

How old are you, twelve?

There you go again...

I guess you haven't learned that your arguments are rendered null and void by your rudeness and invectives. Seems like a character flaw to me. Perhaps you should try religion.

"I understand your analogy (and yes I am married and happily so, I believe she feels the same way). I guess the question is do evolutionists and/or scientists purposely deceive people? "

I leave that up to you to determine. My analogy should explain where I stand on the hardcore atheists pushing evolution such as Gould and Hawkins. Others are simply ignorant of facts. You see it with liberals ALL THE TIME. They simply don't THINK. Instead they are too eager to "jump on the bandwagon" so as to conform to what they often hear. The more important question is, what do you believe. Don't answer me. Just think it over.

"Let us assume for a moment you are correct so let's ignore evolutionary theory altogether and just look at the evidence. If man and all life was created in 6 days, then we should see the bones of modern humans (and all modern animals) appearing alongside the bones of dinosaurs . But the fossil record seems to not suggest that at all. Even with evolutionary theory thrown out, the fossil record seems to cause a dilemma in this regard."

If a worldwide flood is true, what would you expect to find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers? Just what we have! We have found bones. Oodles of them.

Let me just add this as a passing comment - if you were to find bones of a skunk, would you know that it's major weapon was it's odor? Of course not! Or what it looked like intact? As is often the case they don't always find bones intact, let alone know what they looked like whole. Mummies are found all the time. They're people.

The fossil record has NEVER found any "transitional" species from ape to human because there is none. Still they keep hoping and looking because that is what they want to be true! Claimed evidence of fossils linking different organisms does not stand scrutiny. As Dr. Colin Petterson of the British Museum of Natural History said, "there is not one ... for which you could make a water tight argument." Dr. Patterson is a senior palaeontologist at the British Museum of Natural History in London to Luther D. Sutherland.

Furthermore there are many hundreds of types of creatures in the fossil record that are still present today. Jellyfish, starfish, snails etc. that are supposed of be millions or is it now billions of years old. Things breed true to their KIND, just as the Bible states in Genesis. It is also not unusual for an animal to be extinct. We try to manage this today through an endangered species list. It's very normal for animals to die out.

For fun, look up the flaws of carbon dating. It's a hoot on the assumptions made for dating.

It's also interesting that the Bible speaks of dinosaurs living in the time of the Bible. Specifically

Job 40:15-19

[15] Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

[16] Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

[17] He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

[18] His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

[19] He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

behemoth is often translated as a rhino or an elephant. Last time I saw either, neither one had a "tail like a cedar tree" or strong bones like "iron". If you have a moment, read that description closely - "chief in the ways of God" ... this sounds more like a dinosaur to me. Perhaps a Brachiosaurus? The word "dinosaur", meaning "terrible lizard" wasn't coined to 1841 by (if I member correctly) Sir Richard Owen.

Most theologians agree that the book of Job was written about 2000BC. Whatever is described certainly sounds like a dinosaur and certainly suggests it was living with people!

Have you ever checked on how often cultures ALL OVER THE WORLD have stories about "dragons"? Saint George? A flag had one as an emblem. China is rich in it's history of "dragons". It's not a coincidence. They lived with people.

The Bible also references "flying serpents".

Isaiah 60:6

[6] The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.

Could this be a Pteranodon or a Rhamphoryncus?

There are lots of interesting references in the Bible to creatures. I leave you with the Levianthan, a sea dwelling creature mentioned in Job 41:1,31, which has a spear proof scaly armour (15-17, 23, 26-30) is incredibly fierce and powerful 8-10, 12, 25,33 and is capable of breathing FIRE 19-21. If a Bombardier can have fire coming out the back that exists today, why couldn't a larger animal have that attribute in another form? I leave it up to you to list out the verse or just browse through them. Sometime reading it for yourself makes a lasting impression. Here's a good url for that http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/kjv/browse.html

I simply don't see the Judeo Christian God having the limitations of man. Many would like to impose noon's limitations on Him and use THAT as their yardstick for truth. A funny thing about truth, it doesn't change and hoaxes don't make truth, truth either. The bottom line is this, for Christians:

Rom. 1:20

[20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: That verse sounds alittle ominous to me ... "no excuse"... . Either you believe Him or you believe man. There truly is NO common ground between Christianity and evolution. The more you study the two te more glaring the difference is and you must chose which you put your faith in - man or God. Hands down it's God for me. Join me - let Him have the credit and glory He deserves - not mockery in His image being an "ape". He's no ape!

Okay, hope that helps clarify some of what I believe and why. Now I've got to get back to work!

Doesn't bode well 4 the UK, mussay.

Most of everything that built the UK as the UK (and the US as well) was pre-Darwin.

I have disagreements with you there.

As I was just about to sign off - oodles of work to do!!!

I'm glad I didn't. I'll review your link.

He's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AWESOOOME!

Last night I was going through a book on Astronomy. It's true.

Pss.19:1

[1] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Pss.97:6

[6] The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

The pictures I saw were STUNNINGLY beautiful. Astronomy also supports, Intelligent Design -> God being the Creator. It all works together like a beautiful symphony. Not so long ago I read that stars emit a sound. I found that to be very interesting -perhaps that is their way of praising Him!

Pss.136:9

[9] The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

And they do - rule at night!

I really have to go!

Thank you again for the link!

I will read through that later tonight.

Whenever I hear some say, "Evolution is a fact, it is true," it remindes me of statements by members of the mainstream media that "There is no liberal bias in the news media." They are both so influenced by their own assumptions that they cannot see how their presuppositions influence their conclusions. In some of the articles I've read proportedly "proving" evolution, I see researchers whose interpretations of what they're observing are colored by their acceptance of "evolution as fact." They are so wedded to this notion that they are incapable of stepping back and looking at their evidence from non-evolutionary frame of reference, which might lead them to different, and often less-rash, conclusions.