Posted on 02/01/2006 3:42:08 PM PST by John Jorsett
Why do American troops prefer the century old .45 caliber pistol to lighter 9mm models. It’s all about “stopping power.” As far back as 1900, during the fighting against Moslem rebels in the Philippines, there had been complaints of enemy fighters getting shot and continuing to attack. From this experience, the then standard army pistol, a .38 caliber (9.65mm) weapon, was replaced by a .45 caliber (11.4mm) one. In the 1980s, the .45 was in turn replaced by a 9mm pistol. There were a lot of complaints about that, but 90 years of experience demonstrated that you should not depend on a pistol in the heat of combat. But that was largely European experience, in major wars. In these conditions, pistols were rarely used in desperate battles. The fighting in Iraq reminded everyone that, especially in urban combat, a pistol was still an essential weapon. Going into buildings, troops would often prefer to have one or two guys holding pistols, as these could get into action faster if you were in cramped and crowded conditions. At close range, you didn’t want someone with a gun, or a knife, to require a second shot. And at ranges measured in a few feet, you couldn’t miss. If the enemy was amped up, you wanted to take him down with one shot, because there might not be time for a second. Many police SWAT teams have stayed with the .45 for the same reason.
The M1911 was better at stopping people, and that was mainly due to the size of the bullet. Technically, the “hitting power” of a bullet is determined by the bullet weight and velocity, and is measured in joules. The widely used 9mm Parabellum generated 583 joules, the Russian 7.62mm Tokarev (mainly used to execute cowardly soldiers, POWs or uncooperative civilians) produced 499 joules, while the .45 (11.4mm) only came up with 450 joules. But there's a major problem in just using joules, and that is how much of that energy is actually applied to the person being hit. A smaller, faster bullet has a tendency to just go through someone. This does damage, often fatal damage, but if often does not slow down a highly energized soldier. A larger bullet, especially a blunt one, will be more effective at "stopping" someone. Thus the popularity of the .45 caliber pistol round. Although it has less energy than the 9mm round (450 joules compared to 583), those who have used both insist that the .45 is far more effective than the smaller and faster 9mm. Part of this has to do with the fact that the .45 (11.4mm) bullet hits with a 60 percent larger (as seen head on) area, thus it applied more of that energy to the target. This explains the greater likelihood of the .45 caliber bullet "knocking down" whoever it hits. The same physics applies to rifle bullets (although they tend to have pointy tips, unlike the blunter ones for pistol pullets.) A 7.62mm bullet is 88 percent larger (head on) than a 5.56mm one.
Even before the Department of Defense decided to switch back to the .45, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the U.S. Marine Corps went and got .45 caliber pistols for use as an “alternative” to the standard 9mm M9. SOCOM was never happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use 9mm hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went out and developed the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system. This weapon, based on a popular H&K design, is 1.53 inches wide, 5.9 inches high and 9.65 inches long. It weighs 2.42 pounds empty and uses ten or twelve round magazines. The original M1911 is 8.25 inches long, 5.25 inches high, 1.5 inches wide and weighs 2.44 pounds empty (add .4 pounds for a loaded, seven round, magazine). Some 2.7 million M1911s have been manufactured so far, 1.9 million of them during World War II. Some 650,000 of the new U.S. .45 caliber pistols are expected to be manufactured initially.
The U.S. Marine Corps have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But this supply is running out, and the marines have been eager to see the 9mm M9 pistol replaced with a new .45 caliber model. Some marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
The SOCOM Mk 23 may not be a prime candidate for the new standard pistol. That’s because the Mk 23 is a large weapon. A new “standard .45” will be used by a wide variety of troops, including women (who have smaller hands.) It is possible to make smaller .45s. One of the smallest currently available is the Glock Model 37. This .45 caliber pistol is 7.32 inches long, 5.51 inches high and 1.18 inches wide. It’s 1.63 pounds empty, and 2.22 pounds with a ten round magazine. Glock began making .45 caliber pistols in the early 1990s, and has steadily improved that design. There are smaller .45s than these Glocks, but none that are as sturdy and reliable. So it is possible to get a smaller .45 design that will be as robust as the original M1911.
Too bad there's no "edit" function here. :(
If anyone's scratching their head after reading it, the original poster's material (Uncle Jaque) began with this:
Although not a .45, perhaps one of the greatest handgun bargains of the year is the Czech surplus CZ-52 in .30 Tokarev or 7.63 X 25mm.
And, ended with this:
It has a reputation for "overpenetration" with the FMJ/RN projectile
Everything following was my actual reply.
Argh..
The more I see the more I believe they really are just playing us for fools.
For some reason the wanton waste just drives me crazy. Maybe it is my Scottish blood. I recall reading where after WWII we had the British just push hundreds if not thousands of new lend lease aircraft into the ocean.
Then, sure enough, in Korea we needed them and didn't have them.
These were really great binoculars, extremely hidgh quality. I have a pair and they are better than all but the very best even today.
I have a Taurus 45 millenium pro. Good conceal weapon. But I still like my bushmaster
They did the same thing with small arms they conned American civiliians into lending "for the British home guard". After the war, instead of returning the hunting rifles to the American sportsmen, they were destroyed.
I remember watching news footage of perfectly good helicopters being shoved off of aircraft carriers at the "end" of the Vietnam war.
Not only do they soak the fools (you, me, and the rest of the taxwallets) for stuff like $600 toilet seats, but then they destroy them, so that they can turn around and replace them.
This is the stuff Eisenhower warned us against -- the "military/industrial complex." The "lesson of Vietnam" is that wars are apparently no longer "fought to win" -- they are managed as a valuable resource. It takes a war to bleed taxpayers dry, and funnel the money into the pockets of some very large contractors who tend to have a revolving door policy at the management level for former government bigwigs.
It's crap like this that gives corruption a bad name. /sarcasm
PS:
I forgot to mention that as bad as "the above" is, it can't hold a candle to the new practice of bringing the Chinese government in on the deal, to help pick over the bones of the American taxpayer.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this. I mean, what IS the basic principle at work here? "Honor among thieves"?
I went down to the gunsafe and looked, I think you are right they are 200 grain. I still have some of the old stuff. The +p 200 grain hollow points are about 10 years newer. I couldn't lay my hands on the box so I'm not sure about the manufacturer but they used the original speer hollow point bullet loaded to +p pressure. I don't know if you can find this round anymore but it was one of my favorites.
I have read that all the Chinese arms "companies" such as Norinco, Polytech, etc, that sell guns to US marketers are in fact just branches of the Chinese Red Army. IOW, our government is directly paying for building up the Red Army's capability when it buys arms from China.
I don't think those Chinese "companies" can legally sell military type arms such as the SKS and the Norinco 1911 copies on the US civilian market anymore, but they're selling sporting type guns here. I have seen Chinese copies of the old Winchester model 97 shotgun that appear to be pretty well made compared to some of the crude junk that came from China back in the late 1980s and early '90s. I remember seeing Chinese Tokarev 7.65x25 caliber pistols at gun shows back then that looked like they had been made by the 3 Stooges using a hacksaw and a cold chisel.
The Russian 7.62x25 is a high pressure pistol and subgun round. I don't think I would bust a cap with one of those Chinese Tokarevs without wearing full body armor and 1" of shatterproof glass in front of my eyes.
Actually, speaking as a teacher of American History, the classic Trench Broom was the old Winchester pump shotgun ... I forget the model number but it sported a bayonet and a hammer. That was WWI and I think it predates the Thompson.
The Thompson was often called the Chicago Typewriter because it "wrote" so many obituaries during the roaring twenties. In fact what do you think made the roaring twenties roar? But the Thompson was originally marketed by mail to rural farmers for "pest control." I'll bet the landowners along the border to Mexico could still put it to that use....
Don't say that. You are destroying the hopes of guys that buy .45s because they think it will make them look and sound tougher.
The shotgun in question was the Model 97. Hammer on the outside and it had tendency to go off when you didn't want it to after it was used enough to wear a bit, however, it was very useful and I saw quite a few of them when I was a kid in the 1950s.
Take that .30 Tok, pull the bullet, replace with a .30 saboted 52 gr. .224 bullet. Now ya got something interesting to play with.
Would that I could! Alas, the gun in question belongs to poster John Jorsett -- I royally ratf'd the attributions in my reply @235, and the first half of it is quoted materaial from JJ's post @222. (I caught it after I posted it, and tried to unfarkle it in post 242 back on Feb 4th) A classic "I hate when that happens" moment (argh and a half!)
I must have forgotten to put in the opening <i>, and/or the closing </i>. The result was that his material (quoted) and mine (in reply) blended together in what looked like something I'd written in its entirety. Feh!
Here's my sole contribution to that post (which you can check out by looking at my 235 and his 222):
Oh, for an <EDIT> button!
I knew someone who had an A/D with one (dropped it, it went off), he was lucky -- the bullet went through his leg bone, into his knee, through his knee bone, out his leg, into a 4x4 stud, through the stud, and for all I know is still in low earth orbit. It's an amazingly powerfull "little" round.It is not the gun to take bowling pin "hunting", though. I saw bowling pins that never even twitched when hit. The bullets went clean through them so fast that there was no visible movement to the pin whatsoever.
"Pocket Carbine" is not much of a stretch from what I've seen of them. I don't know about its value as a personal defense weapon, though, unless its incredible overpenetration could be tamed by expanding ammunition. (And if they do become popular, I'd expect to see them demonized (and probably outlawed) as "cop-killer" guns because of their ability to penetrate most soft body armor.)
Now that I've got that cleared up <g>, I'll opine that I really would not mind having a Tokarev. I examined my friend's Norinco, and frankly I was impressed with it. Seemed very tight, solid, and well-built -- and, it went *bang* every time the trigger was pulled.
As to sabot loads, I'm of mixed opinion. I've never heard much positive about them in terms of accuracy (but then, pretty much all I've ever heard about them was in regards to the (Remington?) .30-'06-.223 commercial sabot loads.
If it turned out that such a load was accurate (and fed reliably) I imagine it'd be quite the impressive little "pocket varmint rifle". Probably be challenging to try and find a sufficiently powerful scope for it, with sufficiently long eye relief!
My finances are such that I can barely afford to keep a few boxes on hand for my 9mm and .45 (a PT99 and P14-45). I like both of them, and am fairly competent with either, but I wish I could afford to go out back more often to make toothpicks out of bowling pins. I know, I know, I should reload -- but that costs money too. (It's not that I'm a lazy SOB; my health is shot, and after a few years of "living" on the edge, it takes its toll, and things ("things" = stuff like "bills") tend to cascade, and before too long, luxuries (like a hobby that costs money each time you press a trigger) tend to become less important than other "luxuries" (like "light" and "heat").
Sorry, didn't mean to be a wet blanket. I'm sick like a dog at the moment, some kind of cold or flu that hit me like a ton of bricks the other day. Then I read about "my" Tokarev, and got to thinking "hey, don't I wish", and then got to thinking about how I can't even feed my existing toys a decent diet, and... well, there I go again! :)
.224 BOZ BUMP !!!
Maybe rechamber a Glock 20 into 7.62x25 Tok for "fun".....I know.... not practical at all.........just fun !
But they had been around for years, yes? Decades? If not, what model was it that I was thinking of from WWI?
I think they were also used in WWII along with the model 12 and the Browning auto.
The model was 1897:) Model 97. They were a great shotgun and were used into WWII:)
Also, my Pa, who is now with his Lord, Jesus Christ (accepted Christ only hours before his death), was a former Marine, one of the best shots I have ever witnessed, and a former Flushing (Michigan) police officer, never carried anything different than a 1911 .45ACP. He despised the 9mm round of any sort! Right before he died, he swore by the Kimber Ultra Carry pistol chambered to .45 ACP. He told me that anything less an a .45 is just that, less.
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