Posted on 01/28/2006 1:15:41 PM PST by Eaglewatcher
Supporters of a Legislative package commonly called the FairTax, point out that no other tax reform and replacement idea comes close to providing the economic benefits for American working families and the growth of American Manufacturing like the Fair Tax HR 25/ S25. Major U.S. Manufacturers like Ford Motor and Delphi Corporation are facing difficult challenges and are planning or proposing major changes in order to compete in the global marketplace and to compete within the American marketplace.
Talk Radio has been a buzz on the plan by Ford to cut 30,000 jobs and close several facilities. For months, cities with Delphi Parts plants have be stewing over negotiations and plans that want to cut wages and possibly close facilities. Though part of the solution is to be more efficient and certainly to produce what the customer wants to buy, the other part of the debate is unfair trade practices and unfair labor wages in these competing countries.
Radio Talk Show host Neal Boortz is one talk show host that has discussed the solution for American Manufacturing repeatedly. He has also written a New York Times best selling book, “The FairTax Book” in conjunction with Congressman John Linder of Georgia. The book lays out the problems with our archaic income and payroll tax system and than reviews the benefits of the Legislative Replacement package sponsored by Congressman Linder and based on the 10 years of work and research conducted by Americans for Fair Taxation.
On Television, CNN's Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly show their outrage on how American Manufacturing Jobs are leaving American Shores but provide no comprehensive solutions in their form of “sound bite journalism”. They and many other Americans misunderstand and dismiss the serious grassroots support and supporting research for a solution that will truly help the "little guy" and restore good paying American Jobs. (The Fair Tax HR 25/ S25. www.fairtax.org)
The solution for Ford, Delphi and American Manufacturing in general is not trade barriers or tariffs but is fair trade. But how do you get Fair Trade when competing countries do not pay a Fair Wage. American Workers do not need to compete globally by lowering their wages to such Draconian levels. Fair Tax supporters point out that the solution for better paying American manufacturing jobs at home is to have the lowest taxes on American Manufacturing companies.
American Manufacturing goes where it costs them the least to do business. Even with the higher costs of fuel to ship those goods from overseas, the low wage is what helps some countries compete and it is the Lower business taxes that helps other countries compete.
In Europe, Ireland has had the strongest economic growth and best employment numbers because they have the lowest taxes on business (Corporate tax 12 %). The Solution for America is Lower Taxes on American Manufacturing not Lower Wages on American Workers. The incentive for business to stay in America and not outsource is lower taxes on Corporate earnings with less tax compliance costs.
Ultimately, It is the consumer that pays the business tax in the end on all products and services. Business taxes like business costs for manufacturing are just worked into the price. The Consumer pays the tax not the business.
What if the United States had the lowest Corporate tax in the World? Would not business flock here to manufacture? What if instead of the Bahamas being the Offshore tax haven for business or Corporate headquarters that for Tax purposes those businesses made New York, or California, or Chicago their Corporate home and their preferred place to manufacture from and ship around the World?
There is such a tax plan in Congress waiting in the wings to rev up our Economy, by providing the right incentive for American Manufacturing to stay in America, for Good paying manufacturing jobs not to be outsourced, for American Families to have more take home pay, to make U.S. Soil a Tax free zone for business that can export products around the world Tax-Free. This is how we save American jobs and this is how we compete against substandard wages paid by our global competitors.
The Legislative Package in Congress has been around for several years; it is well researched and has sound economic data to back it up. It is commonly called the FairTax and has over 45 Co-Sponsors in the House and Senate. The bills are HR25 and S25. According to the Fair Tax Scorecard 155 Legislators are leaning in favor. Last Spring 75 Economists sent an open letter to Congress and the President in favor of the Fair Tax. They were joined by Alan Greenspan’s testimony in favor of a consumption tax as a replacement for an Income tax.
From an American worker stand point, the key point is that the Fair Tax helps save American jobs and promotes American Manufacturing that stays on U.S. Soil. It allows American workers to take home an average 30% larger paycheck each and every week by eliminating any federal withholding for income tax or payroll tax from an American workers paycheck. American workers take home 100% of their paycheck!!
American Manufacturers have the incentive to stay in the US and not outsource because they pay no Corporate tax. New American Manufacturing is created because Capital investment in the US is tax-free. Building new plants in the US will cost them less because of lower taxes. The Exports they send overseas pay no tax and are cheaper for sale in the global marketplace. This allows American Manufacturing to compete globally because of lower taxes and not lower wages like Delphi is trying to accomplish.
The Fair Tax is a revenue neutral replacement of the individual and corporate Income tax; payroll tax, capital gains tax, the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) and the Death Tax (Estate Tax). It is replaced with a National Sales Tax on retail purchases of all new products and services and supports the funding of the National Budget including Social Security and Medicare.
According to the Legislation, the national sales tax will be included in the price tag you see on a product and will be broken out as a separate line item on your receipt so that Americans know how much they are being taxed and how much they are sending to Uncle Sam with every purchase.
American Families do not have to wait until April 15th to get a refund of their own money. Middle Income Families will take home an average 15% more because of no Income tax withholding and an additional 7.65% because of no payroll tax withholding. Under the Fair Tax, the tax collected replaces the income that funds the national budget and replaces the payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare.
The Fair Tax Legislative package is much more than just a national sales tax it is a package that also has a Prebate (rebate) system that truly untaxes the poor and treats everyone equally and fairly. No forms to keep, no receipts to log in or file. Everyone gets the same prebate check based on family size and valid Social Security cards for each family member.
Maid or Millionaire; the simple way to be sure no one pays a national sales tax on the essentials is not complicated exemptions but to simply send each household a monthly check (debit card) to cover the national sales tax on all spending up to the poverty line for that Family size.
Health and Human Services calculates the poverty line for a married couple with 2 children at $25,660 for the year 2005. The Fair Tax assumes every family of 4 will spend at least that much and sends them a prebate to cover the national sales tax on every dollar up to $25,660. The Inclusive tax rate is 23% or $5,902. The Fair Tax sends each month $492 (5902/12). If that family makes less than $25,660, they still receive the monthly check for $492.
It is a fact, if you make more you spend more. Under the Fair Tax if you spend more you pay more. With the Prebate, the Fair Tax is progressive in that the net tax rate for those American families at the poverty line is a true ZERO; for those at twice the poverty line the net rate is about 11.5%; at 4 times poverty that family is about 17.2%; and the wealthy at 10 times the poverty line and higher, average between a 20 to 23% net federal tax rate.
The Fair Tax truly untaxes the working poor by eliminating the payroll tax of 7.65% and allowing the working poor to take home 100% of their paycheck and receive an additional $5,902/ year to cover the National Sales tax on essentials like clothing, food, housing, or daycare. (Family of 4)
Trillions of Offshore dollars that wealthy individuals and wealthy Corporations hold offshore because of America's current tax laws will return to US shores under the Fair Tax. This capital will find a tax free zone in America and want to invest in American Manufacturing and business that will not only sell to Americans at home but to the entire world. American Exports will not have the 23% national sales tax on them for export. These exportable products will also drop in price because we have removed a major cost element from the supply chain. With no business income or payroll taxes, the cost of those products will go down. With no IRS you reduce the compliance costs dramatically for complying with the IRS rules and regulations. This savings throughout the supply chain will also be reflected in a lower price at home and for export.
It depends on the economist and it depends on the economic model but the estimated price drop on products and services is between 10 and 25% on average. Something you bought for $100 under the income tax will drop to somewhere between $75 and $90 dollars. When you add in the National Sales Tax the final price will be between $97.50 and $117.00. (30% exclusive tax rate equals 23% inclusive or income tax equivalent rate)
Under the Income tax a lower middle income tax family had to earn $129 in order to take home $100. This is based on a 15% income tax withholding and a 7.65% payroll tax withholding.
Under the Fair Tax you take home more money and you have more money to spend even after buying the same items and paying the Fair Tax. You take home $129 and spend $117 with the Fair Tax to buy the same $100 worth of goods you bought with $100 in take home pay under the archaic Income and payroll tax system. You are $12 ahead and on top of that will receive the monthly Prebate check.
Under the Fair Tax Legislative package you lower taxes on business; you give them the incentive to produce and manufacture here within the US and not in China or India, or Mexico.
The way to compete in the 21st Century is not to cut our wages in half. The way to compete in the world is to provide the incentive for business to do business inside the US.
The Fair Tax Legislative package does so much in so many ways. Our American Economy will boom when American manufacturing is growing in the US. The Fair Tax is the best vehicle to do that.
When the Lobbyists and their paid economists come out against it beware. With out the convoluted tax code, Lobbyists, Congressmen, congressional aides and "K" Street will lose a lot of their power and influence. If they come out against it than it must be good for average American families.
Every Politician that came out in support of this idea last election cycle won. This is a winning issue for politicians and when average American people are presented all the facts of the Fair Tax 80 to 90% love it. Get the Facts at www.fairtax.org
If Average American workers can get people like Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly to truly study all the facts that support the Fair Tax, perhaps we can get them to join the over 75 economists that wrote a letter to Congress last Spring in support of the idea. The Fair Tax is the most comprehensive solution to aid American Workers, American Families, American Manufacturing and the American Economy.
"I told you I would agree to debate if you could get Boortz. You seemed to think you could - now you're getting all pissy."
I never indicated anything of the sort. In fact, I remember laughing when I read that demand - there he goes again, dictating the terms of the debate. I have stated on many occasions that I refuse to accept your self appointed authority - either on FR on in the real world.
Who is the liar now?
"The issue is you seem to be more interested in getting my personal information than arranging a debate with Boortz. It makes me wonder why. I don't know you from Adam. You're just some tax kook on the internet. I'm not about to give my personal information without some idea that you can really arrange a debate with Boortz."
So I am supposed to call Boortz's people and tell them I want to schedule a debate with "Your Nightmare"? You are perfectly aware how ridiculous that is.
"Then it's not worth my time. These two are the guys spreading the misinformation. These are the two that need to be debunked."
Really? I would be willing to bet that neither Boortz nor Linder have ever posted a letter on FR, and yet you do battle with other FairTaxers on a daily basis. Why is THAT worth your time?
You are a coward, YN. That much is very obvious.
Dimples, nightmare, yur nightmare.
I thank you for your responses and though they may be repeats for you, i was interested in your alternatives and why.
I focused in part on the "Regressive" issue not knowing where you were coming from. In some discussions, I find this a big issue for many people. It does not seem to be a concern for you.
To get most Democrats to agree to any kind of reform, something that offsets what many call"regressive" has to be addressed. Payroll taxes are the most Agressive unless you take the argument that EITC is the offset for that. I believe it is an offset for income tax - hence its name.
I beleive Payroll tax is still greater as a percentage on the average family than excise taxes.
2nd point on SS/MC issue;
The Fair Tax doesn't solve it but it puts us on a track to better funding of it by broadening the tax base. With stronger economic growth we have more revenue going to the programs. If x % goes to SSI and Y% goes to MC, as GDP grows revenue increases. I also like the "fairness" of the idea of everyone supporting these important programs with every penny they spend. The burden can not be placed solely on 2 younger workers for every retiree.
My problem so far with your Flat Tax solutions is if we exempt all Retirement income from any taxation or very limited taxation. Than with longer life expectancies we will have generational warfare.
People retiring at 65 and living to 95 will have 30 years of great benefit with little to no taxation.
Because the payroll tax is flat that is why it is Regressive. That is the definiton that most Democrts have used. Because it is Flat, those that can least afford the essentials have a flat 7.65% taken out of every paycheck.
If you have a Flat Income tax and propose NO exemptions than you fit into the traditional Democratic view of Regressive taxation on the working poor and middle class.
Dimples Posted: You seem to be advocating for high earners to pay more for each dollar of SS benefit they will receive than a low earner. Nothing "fair" about that. That would be like charging a high earner more for the same loaf of bread that a low earner would be charged simply because of his ability to pay. Not very "fair" of you.
But that is exactly what we do with the flat income tax. The more you make the more you pay for a loaf of bread. The bread is all the services Government provides its citizens. If you make $100,000 you pay a flat 17% and pay 17,000 for the same amount of Government the FAmily earning $50,000 that pays only $8500.
You must admit SS/MC taxes are just that taxes. You are not buying or investing at all. They are taxes that go into the general fund in a "pay as you go system" just like everything else goes into and out of the federal budget.
In Social Security, I believe and have written about the "Tier 2 Soultion" Whether you ae a maid or a millionaire , you should receive a flat payment for SS that covers up to the poverty line. ($9,570/individual). Keeping Seniors out of poverty was the original goal of SS and we should return to it.
Read Article: New deal for a New Century – Fair Tax plus the Tier 2 Solution.
http://fairtaxreform.blogspot.com/2005/05/new-deal-for-new-century-fair-tax-plus.html
"You know very well that HR 25 has the FairTax rate being adjusted every year based on the payroll tax's base (wages) so that it doesn't collect more for Social Security/Medicare than the current system."
We have been around and around on this issue and you believe that you alone can predict what will happen to Social Security revenues and rates after FairTax implementation, I refuse to acknowledge your sole authority to make those judgements and you respond by calling me a liar.
Here is the short cut to this contentious debate for all those who don't want to wade through all the technical details. The FairTax broadens the base of SS and Medicare revenues by shifting from a payroll to a much wider base on the entire economy. That means one of two likely scenarios: (1) more money will be raised ,or (2) the rate will be reduced. YN has his view as to which will predominate; FairTaxers have theirs. Regardless of which scenario unfolds, the FairTax broadens the base for the programs. Most would consider that a benefit and a major step forward in addressing the core problem, which is, as I said, demographic in nature.
We have been around and around on this issue and you believe that you alone can predict what will happen to Social Security revenues and rates after FairTax implementation, I refuse to acknowledge your sole authority to make those judgements and you respond by calling me a liar.I'm not making any predictions! It's in the bill!
SEC. 904. TRUST FUND REVENUE. `(d) Old-Age, Survivors and Disability Insurance Rate- The old-age, survivors and disability insurance rate shall be determined by the Social Security Administration. The old-age, survivors and disability insurance rate shall be that sales tax rate which is necessary to raise the same amount of revenue that would have been raised by imposing a 12.4 percent tax on the Social Security wage base (including self-employment income) as determined in accordance with chapter 21 of the Internal Revenue Code most recently in effect prior to the enactment of this Act. The rate shall be determined using actuarially sound methodology and announced at least 6 months prior to the beginning of the Calendar year for which it applies.
`(e) Hospital Insurance Rate- The hospital insurance rate shall be determined by the Social Security Administration. The hospital insurance rate shall be that sales tax rate which is necessary to raise the same amount of revenue that would have been raised by imposing a 2.9 percent tax on the Medicare wage base (including self-employment income) as determined in accordance with chapter 21 of the Internal Revenue Code most recently in effect prior to the enactment of this Act. The rate shall be determined using actuarially sound methodology and announced at least 6 months prior to the beginning of the calendar year for which it applies.
Here is the short cut to this contentious debate for all those who don't want to wade through all the technical details. The FairTax broadens the base of SS and Medicare revenues by shifting from a payroll to a much wider base on the entire economy. That means one of two likely scenarios: (1) more money will be raised ,or (2) the rate will be reduced. YN has his view as to which will predominate; FairTaxers have theirs. Regardless of which scenario unfolds, the FairTax broadens the base for the programs. Most would consider that a benefit and a major step forward in addressing the core problem, which is, as I said, demographic in nature.Well, it's in the bill that the rate will be reduced so I'm guessing that's the most likely scenario. What do you think?
As opposed to a "pigdog", a "Zon", a "principled", a "phil_will1" or any other posters using their real names?
You're all frauds. And you still can't prove my tag line wrong.
The Fair Tax doesn't solve it but it puts us on a track to better funding of it by broadening the tax base.But the rate is adjusted every year based on the wage base. A broading base doesn't raise more money if you lower the rate.
Most would consider that a benefit and a major step forward in addressing the core problem, which is, as I said, demographic in natureWho are you to say what most would consider? You're nothing more than someone, safely ensconced behind her computer screen hurling insults and lies behind a cloak of anonymnity.
What makes you the expert?
BTW, you've never said specifically what you want to publicly debate, that is, what isn't "publicly" debated here?
BTW Zon because you like to post your idiocy about me to everyone but me "behind a cloak of anonymnity" I'll respond in kind. For that and other reasons , you're a moron too. You have yet to prove otherwise, even your friends are saying it.....
Signed lewislynn (my real name, not anonymous)
Tell me If I have this correct??
You support a Flat Tax On wage and pension income only?
What Rate is revenue neutral in your plan???
Like others you do not tax individual income from savings, investment, capital gains, but you do tax pension, 401k and IRA income & withdrawals?
You keep the payroll tax as it is ;so add 7.65% to your total tax burden.
You support a Flat tax on Corporate income but eliminate depreciation and allow immediate expensing? What is the corporate Rate???
No Corporate tax on foreign income? That will encourage companies to build more plants in Mexico won't it? Why make a profit in the US with American workers and pay a Flat Tax when I can make the same product in Mexico and bring the money home and pay no tax???
One time personal exemption? How much?? and please calculate the net rates and compare it to the net rates under the Fair Tax? Try Family of 4 at povertyline; 2 times Poverty; 4 times Poverty and 10 times Poverty line>
Under the Fair Tax we have a family of 4 at the Povertyline of $25,660. They spend $25,660 under the Fair Tax and their inclusive rate is 23% and they receive a prebate equivalent to that of $5902 to cover or offset the Fair Tax. Let's be clear they have a gross take home pay( no wage change) of $25,660; 23% goes to the Fair Tax on each $100 spent. and they receive a prebate of $23 for each $100 dollars spent. You could argue that the NET Tax Rate is ZERO. They spend all of their Gross pay so they pay $5902 in Fair Tax. They receive a Prebate for $5902. Net Federal tax rate is ZERO.
You could argue purchasing power a different way as well.
Their after tax purchasing power with no price drop is $24,303 and their net rate is 5.2%. ( $25,660 plus $5,902 equals $31,562 times 23% inclusive tax rate = $7,260. Reducing purchaisng power to $24,320. Their net tax rate and out of pocket expense is($25,660-$24,320=$1340) This leaves a net tax rate of 5.2% of their Gross Pay.
Compare this worst case scenario Fair Tax to the Flat Tax and the Fair Tax still wins!!! But this isn't really accurate now is it. $7260 is the tax on $31,562 of spending not $25,660 but since I have had others warp this in the past, I like to put this up anyway. Because even with this bad math example it beats the Flat Tax. Dimples should love this because it has no price drop or credit for embedded taxes at all. IT still beats his Flat Tax.
If your Flat Tax has a $25,660 exemption to cover up to the povertyline. Than this family pays Zero flat income tax but does pay 7.65% in payroll tax.
There net rate is 7.65%. Their purchasing power drops to $23,697.
We need more specifics of your plan so we can compare.
PLEASE PROVIDE.
Dimples, Did I understand that you would have no exemption?
Than the Dimple plan would have 17% flat income tax plus 7.65% payroll tax for a total of 24.65% on this family of 4 making $25,660?? There take home pay and purchasing power drops to $19,335.
Fair versus Flat ; Fair Tax wins AGAIN!!!
Dimples is that correct for your plan?? Please share more detail for your plan.
Now I used a worst case scenario with no price drop.
I still feel a price drop of 10 to 20% is probable. But I can win with out it.
The FairTax broadens the base of SS and Medicare revenues by shifting from a payroll to a much wider base on the entire economy. That means one of two likely scenarios: (1) more money will be raised ,or (2) the rate will be reduced.
-----
signed...lewislynn (my real name, not anonoymous)
You support a Flat Tax On wage and pension income only?That's what the Flat Tax is. You've studied the alternatives to the FairTax and didn't realize this?
What Rate is revenue neutral in your plan???I have no idea just like you have no idea what rate is revenue neutral for the FairTax (23% isn't). S 1099 has a rate of 17% (19% the first couple of years).
You support a Flat tax on Corporate income but eliminate depreciation and allow immediate expensing? What is the corporate Rate???With the Flat Tax the corporate rate is the same as the personal rate. This makes it pointless for someone to try and avoid the tax by somehow reporting wages as business income.
No Corporate tax on foreign income? That will encourage companies to build more plants in Mexico won't it? Why make a profit in the US with American workers and pay a Flat Tax when I can make the same product in Mexico and bring the money home and pay no tax???Income is generated when a product is sold, not manufactured.
One time personal exemption? How much?? and please calculate the net rates and compare it to the net rates under the Fair Tax? Try Family of 4 at povertyline; 2 times Poverty; 4 times Poverty and 10 times Poverty line>It's a yearly personal exemption. The amount is irrelevant at this point but S 1099 has $25,580 for a couple and $5,510 per child, both of which are adjust yearly for inflation.
You could argue purchasing power a different way as well. Their after tax purchasing power with no price drop is $24,303 and their net rate is 5.2%. ( $25,660 plus $5,902 equals $31,562 times 23% inclusive tax rate = $7,260. Reducing purchaisng power to $24,320. Their net tax rate and out of pocket expense is($25,660-$24,320=$1340) This leaves a net tax rate of 5.2% of their Gross Pay.What you are showing here is that, contrary to the claims of FairTax supporter, the FairTax does not untax everyone to the poverty level of spending. The bill determines the Family Consumption Allowance by multiplying the poverty level by the inclusive rate. But the poverty level doesn't include the FairTax so they should have multiplied the poverty level by the exclusive rate like they did in the section of the bill dealing with Social Security payments.
Compare this worst case scenario Fair Tax to the Flat Tax and the Fair Tax still wins!!! But this isn't really accurate now is it. $7260 is the tax on $31,562 of spending not $25,660 but since I have had others warp this in the past, I like to put this up anyway. Because even with this bad math example it beats the Flat Tax. Dimples should love this because it has no price drop or credit for embedded taxes at all. IT still beats his Flat Tax.Under S 1099, a family of 4 would have exemptions totaling $36,600. A family making $25,660 would pay no tax except the payroll tax but the payroll tax could easily be combined with the general tax where this family paid nothing (although I'm not convinced that they should pay nothing). (Notice they don't profit from the tax system like some would under the FairTax.) I personally think we have a much better chance of getting Social Security reform if it is a separate tax. That way we know exactly what we've paid into the system.
Than the Dimple plan would have 17% flat income tax plus 7.65% payroll tax for a total of 24.65% on this family of 4 making $25,660?? There take home pay and purchasing power drops to $19,335.If you didn't have an exemption, the rate would come down - just like if the FairTax didn't have the FCA ("prebate"), it's rate would come down.
WOW! This is COOL!
AS the GDP grows each year, the rate used will go down to bring in the same revenue as for wages. Therefore the FAir tax overall rate will go down?? Flat Tax doesn't do that does it?
As Baby Boomers Retire and there are less and less workers making that wage income than based on Chapter 21 of the Internal Revenue code for the year the act was enacted we will continue to use those old numbers to determine the Rate. Therefor a strict reading would imply that the rate will go down as GDP grows. So the Fair Tax keeps getting lower and lower. Cool, If that is the way you want to read it is OK with me.
You see That is what happens when you read selectively and so ridgedly.
OR Could it be that this applies to setting up the Fair Tax to start because it will be revenue neutral in the first year or two??
Either way, its a plus for the economy and American Families?? and it taxes for these programs more fairly.
Or does wisdom dictate that the SSI/MC rate will not go down but remain the same and provide greater revenue for these two programs that are on the road to bankruptcy?
There is something so wrong about someone who just wants to continually insult people. I personally, hate the word liar but after you get called it a few times I can see why you might respond in kind. I don't know who is the chicken or who is the egg. But maybe, we can put the insults aside and debate the merits.
It appears in my short time here that those opposed to the Fair Tax throw the insults much more frequently than the proponents. And the proponents, do it usually in response.
But you can't learn or listen if we only yell and insult.
O.K. enough preaching; I'm Sorry!
AS the GDP grows each year, the rate used will go down to bring in the same revenue as for wages. Therefore the FAir tax overall rate will go down??You didn't know this? All your talk about the FairTax and you didn't know this? How can you be so supportive of a plan you are obviously ignorant of?
Or does wisdom dictate that the SSI/MC rate will not go down but remain the same and provide greater revenue for these two programs that are on the road to bankruptcy?If wisdom dictates that the SSI/MC rate not go down then the FairTax bill must not be very wise. It allows for the rate to fall based on the relationship between the wage base and tax receipts.
disparaging remarks not needed; Respectful humor and polite jabs preferred. I am asking you to clarify your position that's all. By actually sharing what you are For; I have a better understanding.
So from this last post, I assume S1099 is acceptable to you over the Forbes Flat Tax? Though I will agree the final rate is the final rate but let us both work with what we know are the rates in the Bills or in the plans.
Now back to my examples. It does depend on the Math method one uses and you do need to be consistant to be fair.
If you use one method, the Fair Tax is a NET tax rate of Zero. The Prebate is a "refund paid in advance" on $25,660 in spending. THat is a fair an honest method.
But even using the my other method where you are showing the Purchasing Power In "Merrill Bender's example of NO price drop." and using Math on $31,562 are NET RAte is 5.2%.
Your S1099 has no Income tax due to the exemption on this family example but does have Payroll tax of 7.65%.
You skipped that paragraph didn't you and went to Dimples example of No Exemption.
Your Plan has a NET 7.65% and my plan with no price drop has a NET of 5.2%. Don't I WIN!!!!!!!!
Which is better for the family of 4 at the Povertyline???
Even my version of the Fair Tax with no price drop at all and the most negative way to do the Math against the FAir Tax; The FAIR TAX WINS!!!!!!!!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!
The above jabs are said respectfully, and in fun only. No disrespect intended at all. I picture you shaking your Head but with a little smile. Come On just a little smile.
Life is not worth living if you don't smile!!!
Look forward to your response.
Respectfully submitted
Merrill Bender
You missed my sarcasm and my point.
I see that part of the bill as the starting point.
I see the rate going down over time with your strict reading of the passage and therefor the public wins in another way because as GDP grows the Rate will dropfrom 23% to 22% to 21% to 20%.
I see a Portion of the Sales tax going to support these programs.
I see in this plan a fairer participation by everyone in supporting these vital programs for Seniors.
I see everyone paying a fair share at all stages of life and not placing this burden on 2 workers for every retiree.
I see the Fair Tax as a better way to fund Social Security and Medicare.
I strongly believe that leaving the payroll tax Ponzi scheme version of these entitlements in place is a crime against my grandchildren's future.
It is not only the amount being spent but the unfair burden it puts on future generations, it is unsustainable and a new method must be found.
Both!!
NO, Nightie ... you're he clueless one. See #415.
A fine post, but Dimp is busy sucking his humb about some people paying more in tax under the FairTax as he seems to have missed this point that many of us have shown and so he's now reduced to calling FairTax supporters "liars".
With an imaginary "non-round" tax plan as the different (and unspecified) ones admired by he and Nightie, how is is he has the gall to call FairTax supporters liars?
Get a dicionary.
signed...lewislynn pigdog (my real name, not anonoymous)
Now back to my examples. It does depend on the Math method one uses and you do need to be consistant to be fair.It neither fair, nor honest. Under your second method there is absolutely no way for the family to purchase the poverty level of goods and services without paying sales tax. I don't see how you could honestly say that people at the poverty level would pay no FairTax.
If you use one method, the Fair Tax is a NET tax rate of Zero. The Prebate is a "refund paid in advance" on $25,660 in spending. THat is a fair an honest method.
But even using the my other method where you are showing the Purchasing Power In "Merrill Bender's example of NO price drop." and using Math on $31,562 are NET RAte is 5.2%. Your S1099 has no Income tax due to the exemption on this family example but does have Payroll tax of 7.65%.Only if the 23% FairTax rate were revenue neutral. It's not.
Your S1099 has no Income tax due to the exemption on this family example but does have Payroll tax of 7.65%.I stated they would be paying payroll taxes.
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