Ahmadinejad Awaits the Hidden Imam (Interesting perpective!)

The American Thinker ^ | 1/25/2006 | John Swails

[odds]

"I'd like to see Bush toss a little of the WOT money to those Qur'anic scholars I mentioned in Post# 98. Put them on our "Voice of America" radio. Have our soldiers distribute their articles. Let's try to defuse this End-Times hysteria."

Yes. That's fair enough. So long as these scholars are held and perceived, by the majority of Muslims, as respected authority figures who have 'their' interests at heart.

Another option along with the one you mention maybe to build more secular infrastructure within these Muslim countries. Hence, gradually, shifting focus from a society run by Islamic laws to a society practising Islam in a more private and spiritual manner. It won't be easy at all. Turkey, for example, began to do this a long time ago and still keeps very strict lid/control on the 'type' of Islam preached by some its so-called religious leaders.

I also agree that there will always be fanatic leaders and those who believe and follow them.

[Dajjal]

I have the following questions and would appreciate your thoughts:
1. What are your views regarding 'suicide' in Islam?

It's late so I'm just going to answer off the top of my head from memory rather than look things up carefully. I also think that you are asking the wrong person these questions. I am not an expert on Islam in general or on terrorist ideology and their Qur'anic interpretation. I am an "armchair researcher" on the slice of Muslim doctrine regarding the Last Days, just from studying this topic after 9/11. But I'll answer as best I can.

The terrorist imams easily get around the ban on suicide in a number of ways: by declaring the whole anti-West jihad to be in self defense, by simply declaring that it is not suicide but killing the enemy in a way that ends one's own, etc. They are experts at word jugglery to prove whatever they want from the Qur'an and Hadith.

2. Does Islam advocate or condone the ‘deliberate’ killing of women, children and other Muslims or innocents, be it infidels, even during a jihad? (Is this similar to what we would call collateral damage?)

Normal Islam -- no. But there was a terrorist "fatwa" a couple of years ago that simply declared that any Muslim collaborating with the West was a munafiq, a hypocrite, and was no better than an infidel. Those women and children standing too close to a US soldier are presumed to be collaborators.

3. What do you think should be done to deal with this crisis? For example, should we annihilate approx 1.3 billion Muslims and eradicate Islam? Should we try to convert Muslims to some other religion or doctrine? Should we hold those current extremist Muslim leaders accountable for their interpretation, teaching and incitement of hatred and violence? Should we point out to all Muslims that their religion is one big bogus and a satanic cult?

Personally, I think Pres. Bush is following the most promising program. Pursue the active jihadists and try to thin their ranks, but also try to bring democratic capitalism to the Middle East, and give the common people a FUTURE to hope for and to work toward. Educate the girls, and free the women from the strict interpretations of shar'ia.

I could dream of some movement for mass conversions, but as a practical matter, that is not going to happen any time soon. But what can happen is for the moderate Muslims to get the financial and moral support to marginalize the extremists. And that seems to me to be far preferable to a bloodbath.

If it were up to me, I'd probably throw some money toward the Sufis, and help them try to just convert as many Sunnis and Shi'ites as possible to that much more peaceful branch.

But if we can start by helping the tyranized masses become self-governing and get them to trust the West, maybe after years of communication some of them might learn what Christianity really is and come around. But that would be way in the future. We're at the early years of a long war right now.

[odds]

Thanks for the reply.

Interesting points and far more practical and objective than a few others I've read in FR.

[Dajjal]

1. What are your views regarding 'suicide' in Islam?
2. Does Islam advocate or condone the ‘deliberate’ killing of women, children and other Muslims or innocents, be it infidels, even during a jihad? (Is this similar to what we would call collateral damage?)

Muhammed 'Abd-al-Salam Faraj, one of the assassins of Anwar Sadat, wrote a booklet called "The Neglected Duty" which has had profound influence on Islamic terrorism since the early 1980s. The "neglected" duty is jihad, Faraj says -- jihad is demanded by the Qur'an but most Muslims just go about their day going to work and raising their kids.

Faraj goes on to "explain" how jihad is not merely the inner struggle against worldly temptation, but must be also understood as the killing of infidels and moderate Muslims. Muslims who neglect jihad, he says, are no better than infidels. He justifies all sorts of actions against anybody in his way. Faraj's reasoning is completely twisted, but the booklet has been published and republished throughout the Muslim world.

One scholar, Johannes Jansen, published an English translation and commentary in 1986, but Macmillan stupidly has let it go out of print and has not republished it to this day. If your library has a copy, definitely read it. If you have any pull with Macmillan, ask them to get it in the bookstores again.

[Smokin' Joe]

This thing about the wells gets me. IIRC, there are underground irrigation tunnel systems which many of the wells tap into.

[odds]

"Faraj's reasoning is completely twisted, but the booklet has been published and republished throughout the Muslim world."

Yes, I understand what you're saying. That's why I mentioned Turkey and what Ataturk initiated there in my post # 101. In secular West the concept of Islamic extremism or fundamentalism is a relatively new phenomenon. Turkey experienced and recognised that long ago, that is why they have been monitoring it very closely for years now.

“One scholar, Johannes Jansen, published an English translation and commentary in 1986, but Macmillan stupidly has let it go out of print…”

I’ll contact Macmillan and see what can be done to get it republished.

Thanks.

[BigCinBigD]

I have it on good authority that the U.S. navy has the Imam hidden in a launch tube and will return him shortly.

[Dajjal]

One of the Signs of Qiyamah is the "Conquest of Constantinople" by the Muslims. There are a number of hadith where Mohammed predicted it would happen. While a few interpretters say that this prophecy was fulfilled back in 1453, many say that Kemel Ataturk was either a disguised Jew or was under Jewish influence, that Turkey will fight on the side of the Dajjal, and that the Mahdi will have to conquer Istanbul back from the hands of the moderates.

But I agree with you. To paraphrase Mao, "Let a thousand Turkeys bloom."

[odds]

Kemel Ataturk, as far as I know, is revered in Turkey, by most if not all Turks, as a patriot, a nationalist and the father of modern Turkey. Acutally, "ata" in Turkish means father and Turk is Turkey. So, not sure about the Jewish connection and propaganda.

I'm not for Mao or communist ideology at all. But yes, secular and modern Turkey has come a long way and could be a good model for other Muslim countries. Only if, among other things, a similar leaders are found and supported.

I must leave, unfortunately, as I've been enjoying this discussion. It is Australia Day - celebration and dinner commitment beckon.

No doubt we will have other related discussions in the near future.

[Dajjal]

No doubt. I look forward to our next meeting.

A HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY to you and yours!

I hope some day to make a pilgrimage to Broken Hill, NSW, to see where Mad Max II was filmed. (LOL!!!)

[odds]

LOL!!

Many thanks.

Good ol' Mel Gibson, put us well and truly back on the world map... him and hoags (Paul Hogan).

See ya.

[Aquinasfan]

The just give a smattering of data: Skyscrapers are a "Sign of Qiyamah" that these are the "Last Days." The telephone is another. Airplanes are another. The imams don't need to decipher obscure sayings. Mohammed said that when Judgment Day draws near, the sons of goatherds would compete to build taller and taller buildings, and that "a brother in the West will speak to a brother in the East," and that men would be able to touch the clouds. There are hundreds of predictions like these.

That's pretty sobering. It's time to take out some nuclear reactors. BTW, how do you think they'd read such an action?

[Bear_Slayer]

Ahmedinijad is trying to bring Armageddon

What? Did Charles Manson escape from prison and secure a position in Iran?

Someone check if Amadamadingdong is playing records backwards. Of course, with that muslim music, it already sounds backwards.

[airborne]

The immediate question: who is this Hidden Imam to whom he referred?

Pleased to meet you! Hope you guessed my name!"

[Dark Skies]

lol...the hidden imam is supposedly living in a well (portal to hell).

[Convert from ECUSA]

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You made my day, Salem! Thanks!

[Dajjal]

If we successfully took out Iran's nuclear capability, they would just reinterpret their hadith accordingly.

The Mahdi does not have an easy time battling the Dajjal. According to the hadith, the Dajjal runs the entire world (except for Mecca and Medina) and has almost unlimited wealth and resources, while the Mahdi has a small but devout cadre of followers; he has many setbacks, but eventually destroys the Dajjal (with help from 'Isha).

Here's a nice hadith telling people how identify the End Times by the moral climate. No, this is not from a sermon by a Southern Baptist televangelist. It is an "authentic" hadith (a hadith that Muslim scholars accept as non-spurious).

When you see that truth has died and people of truth have disappeared,
and you see that injustice prevails through the land;
and the scripture has become despised and things are introduced into it that are not in it and it is turned towards men's desires;
and you see the people of error having mastery over the people of truth;
and you see evil out in the open and the doers of evil are not prevented nor do they excuse themselves;
and you see moral depravity openly manifest and men being content with men and women satisfied by woman;
and you see the believer silent, his word not being accepted;
and you see the sinful lying and he is not refuted nor does his deceit redound upon him;
and you see the lowly despising the great;
and you see the wombs cut open;
and you see he who boasts of moral depravity is laughed at and is not spurned;
and you see young men being handed over like women and women cohabiting with women and their numbers increasing;
and you see men spending their wealth on things other than pious deeds and no one opposes or hinders them;
and you see the onlooker turn his back on the efforts of the believer;
and you see one person molesting his neighbor and no one prevents it;
and you see the unbeliever joyful because he does not see gladness in the believer when he sees corruption in the world;
and you see alcoholic drinks being drunk openly...
and you see women occupying places in the assemblies just as men do and usury is carried out openly and adultery is praised...
and you see the forbidden things made legal and the legal things forbidden;
and you see that religion becomes a matter of opinion and the Book and its laws fall into disuse;
and you see the leaders drawing close to the unbelievers and away from good people;
and you see the leaders corrupt in their rule;...
and you see men eating what their wives have obtained as a result of their immorality and knowing this and persisting in it;...
and you see places of entertainment appearing which no one who passes them forbids them and no one is bold enough to put an end to them;
and you see a worshiper only praying in order that the people may see him;
and you see the experts in religious law devoting themselves to things other than religion, seeking the world and leadership;
and you see the people living together like animals;
and you see the pulpit from which fear of Allah is enjoined but the speaker does not act in the manner he has enjoined others to act;...
and when you see the tokens of truth that I have taught, then be aware [of the advent of the Mahdi] and seek salvation from Allah."
-- The Sixth Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (as)

It reads almost like the table of contents for the latest book published by Regnery Press.

[Dajjal]

BTW, when I say that thie above hadith "prophecy" (or any other -- say, that fire would fall from the sky upon Bagdhad), I do not mean to lend credence to the sayings of Mohammed. These sorts of "prophecies" are simply standard boilerplate for the genre of "apocalyptic literature." But the imams are having a field day applying them to the front page of the daily news.

[mrsrowe]

has it crossed anybody's mind that the hidden imam is not a new idea, it's part of the messianic thing that all of the three monotheistic religions have? is it just me or the sudden interest in the hidden imam and the approach of the end of the world garbage that is being discussed all of a sudden in the west is a convenient way to get people fired up. very few shi'a muslims think the end of the world is nigh for holy reasons.

[scott7278]

Bookmarked.