US Links to Croatian War Crime?

SPIEGEL ^

[montyspython]

Former Croatian General Ante Gotovina stands accused of war crimes in connection with a 1995 military offensive. Some 150 civilians were killed in the advance. Now, it looks like he may have had help from the United States.

His trial may not get started before the end of 2006 or the spring of 2007, but already the case against former Croatian general Ante Gotovina promises some surprises. Gotovina, who is accused of being responsible for the murder of at least 150 Serbian civilians and the eviction of some 150,000 Serbs from the Krajina region in August 1995, may have had some American help.

[FormerLib]

You've really got and ticked off one retired pancake flipper! You know how he hates the truth.

[ma bell]

you think i made hoplies hall of fame?

[montyspython]

So, any comments on the article or are you just going to sit there and chase Tom around like a little puppy dog?

[montyspython]

So why didn't the US bomb the Albanians?

[montyspython]

Hoplite is a geriatric majmun, senility is not pretty folks.

[montyspython]

[tgambill]

It's interesting that this article didn't mention about any involvement of MPRI or the Muh. also participating in Storm. However, it's a good article....

Tom

[tgambill]

"The existence of the mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica"

***** Hopline....You have been a dirty little boy. I know now that you aren't working for someone professional to be a disinfo agent. Know why? I caught you in a very unsophiscated lie. Let me show you.

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You said.....#15

"By the way, Tom, the existence of the mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica, which had for so long been denied by Serb apologists, was confirmed by Stevanovic while he was giving testimony at Milosevic's trial, while being examined by Milosevic no less.

So not only have we confirmed the existence of mass graves you're lying about by actually finding them, we've had the existence of mass graves which the Serbs emptied before we could find them confirmed."

---

****Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I could be mistaken in that I arrived in October 1999, and can only account for the period afterwards.....so, I researched and found the following:

The actual cross of Stevanovic was as follows:

http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg060205.htm

---

"Gen. Stevanovic claimed that this was a reference to the activities of the KLA. He said that the terrain needed to be cleaned-up so that the KLA could not create mass-graves and stage atrocities out of their war casualties, and then palm them off as evidence of mass killings that would serve to justify the NATO aggression.

The KLA has a history of staging its war dead to create the false impression of a massacre. A case in point is Racak, and Gen. Stevanovic said they did the same thing at Pusto Selo and Izbica.

Obviously Stevanovic was not referring to the police’s activity. Nobody ever classifies their own activity as “perfidious” or uses the word “they” to refer to themselves.

Mr. Nice was simply exploiting vaguely worded notes that Stevanovic jotted down in his diary to concoct elaborate conspiracy theories about the Serbian police; conspiracy theories, which the witness ripped apart.

Frustrated at his lack of success, the prosecutor resorted to insults and claimed that the witness was "ready to lie in order to protect this accused." The witness naturally denied this claim."

END QUOTE OF REPORT

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******So, Where did Stevanovic confirm these massacres'? It seems that he didn't confirm them at all. Explain to me relative to the cross and to your accusation. What am I missing?

So, I did some MORE research and discovered an official report based on the ICTY forensic team. Here is what happened. The OSCE gained intell from interviews of refugees in the FRYOM. (Former Yuglslav Republic of Macedonia). It was reported that a massacre of civilians took place in Izbica/Izbice during three days at the end of April. The villagers buried the victims who were mainly from Leocina/lecine. Srbica/Skenderaj municipility, along with other people killed in the vicinity. The burial of these 142 bodies, which included women and children in the center of the village was documented by the KLA (UCK) on videotape. On 2 June, it was reported that Serb forces removed the bodies to an unknown destination. The ICTY forensic team arrived at the beginning of July and exhumed 142 graves......ALL WERE EMPTY. Reportedly, the bodies had been previoiusly identified but had later disappeared. Now this would seem to confirm Stevanovic's story. NOW, I wonder if the defense has accesss to the same reports that I can get hold of....??? anyway, these are official not rumor. I couldn't find anything yet on the Pusto Selo report.

It was also known that bodies were used from the NATO bombing, to show mass graves, Refugees from FRYROM, were told what to say, and either threatened or given money. It's hard to pin point what is true and what is fabricated.

What do you say for yourself at this time......now, I'm going to research the other ones you wrote and let's see if they pan out....

Tom

[Hoplite]

Tom, the point is that there were mass graves at Pusto Selo and Izbica, and General Stevanovic confirmed their existence, along with the fact that the Serbs emptied them.

Further, the actual transcripts of Milosevic's trial are available online, so instead of relying upon the commentary you've culled from Andy Wilcoxson's pro-Milosevic propaganda site, let's review the actual exchange between Mr. Nice and General Stevanovic:

Page 40382

1   Q. Now, you tell me, please, what that phrase "No corpse, no crime"
2   means.
3   A. I think I have explained this during my interview in Belgrade. At
4   that meeting, I don't know precisely which meeting that was but I do have
5   a vague memory, one of the representatives of the security forces, whether
6   it was the military or the civilian security, I don't know, warned against
7   perfidious action by terrorists, namely that they are removing the corpses
8   of their victims and the casualties of anti-terrorist actions only to
9   gather them again later and place them in mass graves in order to blame
10   these mass graves later on Serbian forces.

If you choose to believe that the Serbs emptied mass graves in Kosovo and hid the bodies in Serbia, denying their existence for over two years, because they were trying to stop themselves from being framed, well, knock yourself out - you really can't sink any lower.

[tgambill]

what I read is that a lot of the graves were KLA, and resulting from firefights with the Serbs. Secondly, in the case of Izbica, the ICTY for. couldn't find any bodies. The reports were that the Serbs dug up the graves and took them to Serbian. These reports along with the KLA documented the "dead" were more than likely falsified. Granted, there were firefights between Serbs and KLA.....this is not abnormal in a counter-insurgency operation.

However, the witnesses can't be trusted, the KLA can't be trusted and there were Serbian Paramilitary that was really pissed off so they killed people. Especially the ones shooting with real guns. ;).....

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"If you choose to believe that the Serbs emptied mass graves in Kosovo and hid the bodies in Serbia, denying their existence for over two years, because they were trying to stop themselves from being framed, well, knock yourself out - you really can't sink any lower."

****** No, I'm saying that the KLA and witnesses could very well be lying about the Serbs moving the bodies at all.

*****The KLA was making up mass graves and reporting false massacre's...You cannot believe the witnesses accounts...

Also, the freezer trucks, well that's another story altogether.......which reminds me....

It's lunch time......

[tgambill]

Oh, That's good with the testimony......Someone sent me the entire trial transcript to Nov 21......what a file it is....I need to update it and get the ones to date.

[Hoplite]

Secondly, in the case of Izbica, the ICTY for. couldn't find any bodies.

Tom, stop before you sink any lower.

Again, from General Stevanovic's testimony:

Page 40496

12   You accept, don't you, that evidence of the destination of bodies
13   has grown over time since this trial started, in particular because of the
14   findings in Batajnica and thereabouts?
15   A. You mean the destination of the bodies found in Izbica?
16   Q. Yes.
17   A. Yes, I did have that information, namely that some of the victims
18   were found in the mass grave in Batajnica.

You're just out in your own little world - not even Milosevic's defence witnesses are parrotting the same BS you're spewing here.

Bodies from Izbica were actually recovered from the Petrovo Selo mass grave (Serbia), rather than Batajnica, but your assertion that the ICTY couldn't find any bodies falls right into place with all your other assertions - demonstrably incorrect.

You're beyond useless as a source of information, Tom. You're nothing more than a secondhand source of disinformation, and anybody who listens to you is going to be worse off for the experience.

[tgambill]

Hoplite,

Gee, sorry that I didn't question him before. You imbecile....I did send the witness a special invitation to see be before the trial. He refused my offer for coffee.

Hopelite, you are a complete idiot. We can do this all day and I'll move on when I'm tired of playing these silly games with you.

And, I'm not stopping, get use to it......I'm very daunted by anyone that walks around breathing. As I said, More info will be coming out, hey, maybe with your contacts you can get the scoop before the next testimonies.

So, this does bring up an interesting point. Why would the victims from Izbica, be found in Batajnica. How does he know when no bodies were identified. Also, are you saying that the Serbs moved the bodies in Freezer trucks to north of Belgrade? I know the KLA didn't move them to Serbia....so, the Serbs killed them, packed 142 bodies into freezer trucks, moved them to Batajnica and buried them? Did he check DNA? No, Did they identify the bodies...NO, then how pray tell, does he know this....I say he is lying. Also, notice.......Capt America, that he said...."He DID have this information"....meaning he doesn't now....I bet you he lost it...right? What say he is an Anti-Milosevic supporter...hmmmmmmmm??

Try again, sport...go back to your buddies that is trying to discredit me and the others and tell them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. :) wink.....

Tom

[tgambill]

"I'm not daunted by anyone that walks around breathing"

***there goes my terrible English again. Well, I would rather have the terrible first draft English than your lies. Thought we were finally having a normal conversation until you came back with this one......So, we back on the insulting track....no problem....

[Hoplite]

No Tom, you didn't question General Stevanovic.

Why would you? You know more than he does, in addition to knowing more than anybody else who's ever been to Kosovo - you're the man: the only source of information out there, and if anybody says anything to contradict you, well then obviously the fault lies with them, and not with your (recently gained from Serbian disinformation websites) encyclopedic and infallible knowledge of the subject.

Even if they were a General in the Serbian Special Police during Milosevic's reign.

That's just too damned funny.

How's about Vojislav Seselj? He also acknowledged the movement of corpses from Izbica to Petrovo Selo in his testimony at Milosevic's trial - even gave a victim's name: Dibran Dani. Is he lying about it too?

LOL. Yer pathetic.

[Wraith]

Monty your to much....

[tgambill]

"Why would you? You know more than he does, in addition to knowing more than anybody else who's ever been to Kosovo - you're the man: the only source of information out there, and if anybody says anything to contradict you, well then obviously the fault lies with them, and not with your (recently gained from Serbian disinformation websites) encyclopedic and infallible knowledge of the subject."

*****I'm not quite sure what you trying to accomplish, unless I'm trained in "remote viewing" and can read your mind. I can only go on instinct, and the knowledge that you are a very disturbed individual. The personal attacks, the focus on trying to discredit my contributions, or maybe cause me frustration to that I will go away, or, who knows what your juvenile agenda might be. Certainly you're trying to provoke me to say certain things that may or may not get me banned. I was informed that this is your cowardly style.

Anyway, this post is designed to provoke a defensive response resulting in me justifying my contributions and the validity of each. However, this what I am here for, to learn, and contribute, connect the dots with others that is in the know, and coming up with a picture. Every now and then you run into insecure posters, some are lonely and need to express themselves online because they have no social life, or the wife is dominate and ....:))) overpowers them at home, so this is a release, or actual disinfo agents paid to provide wrong information in the mainstream or, or.......hello, just people with very poor character out of control with their life...and needs to vent. Which are you by the way? The youngest in the family or the one picked on in school........:))

I appreciate your comments, that I know more than the General.....You apparently aren't familar with the politics of the Balkans. It would be interesting to know what political line the General takes and the others. If you recall who arrested Milosevic in the first place......Gee whiz, you think that the other party would try to keep Milosevic in jail and maybe arrested...to justify the arrest. Naw.......

There are just too many conflicting stories it requires more research.........

This thing with you is becoming more and more wasteful as maybe that is your purpose......However, the good part of it, it does lead to more knowledge by doing more research......this is not a bad thing.....you are a waste, as the issues could be addressed with a more productive instead of a destructive approach, however, you seem to have a long time reputation of being a Mouth walking with legs.....but the issues are signficant.

Tom

[Wraith]

Gee what can I say Hoplite it looks like a communal effort took out the trash to the curb.

It seems that you are getting all balled up on the word alleged. The mass grave hype was huge in the effort to demonize the Serbs, the kind of hype that formulates your so called point of view. Of course their were lots of ALLEGED mass graves It happened in Bosnia so it has to be the same thing in Kosovo? This is the kind of logic a retired reservist/cook would use.

No dickweed we are not the liars but I would really like to know what qualifications you have to be an authority on the Kosovo conflict other than being a weekend warrior cook. A grade 8 education and kitchen experience does not cut it. Tom has made the point here. It is sobering to see open minded members of FR come out of no where and tune you in. I did not invite them Hoplite they just stepped up. You seem to lack support from your end, so Piss off and good night....

[Wraith]

Reality is sometimes hard for the old guy to swallow...

[Wraith]

Zagor thanks for your input the truth about the KLA evil continues to surface. The Serbs got a raw deal in Kosovo. Been there got the tee shirt...