Silence That Speaks Volumes (The Pope States that Islam Cannot Reform, the MSM Yawns)

Washington Times ^ | 1/20/06 | Diane West

[mojito]

Remember when word came down from the Vatican that Pope John Paul II had watched Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" and liked it? The anonymously sourced story sparked a media firestorm around the globe as reporters sought confirmation of the papal equivalent of two thumbs up. "It is as it was," we later learned the pope supposedly said. Which sounded like the perfect biblical movie blurb; but did the pontiff actually utter the words? After some non-clarifying retractions from the Vatican, it was ultimately hard to say for sure — although not for journalistic want of trying. This natural curiosity stands in striking contrast to the media silence that has met a far more sensational, far more significant report of papal opinion: namely, that Pope Benedict XVI is said to believe that Islam is incapable of reform. This bombshell dropped out of an early January interview conducted by radio host Hugh Hewitt with Father Joseph D. Fessio, SJ, a friend and former student of the pope. Father Fessio recounted the pope's words on the key problem facing Islamic reform this way: "In the Islamic tradition, God has given His word to Mohammed, but it's an eternal word. It's not Mohammed's word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possibility of adapting it or interpreting it...."

[yankeedame]

Islam can be reformed, and will be reformed, just like a puppy can be trained or a horse can be broken.

Islam can be reformed, but won't be reformed till the Islamic upper echelon find it in their interest to reform.

Remember, Martin Luther didn't bring on the Reformation out of whole cloth. It was encouraged, protected, supported, defended, etc. by Germany rulers who were fed up with seeing riverlets of gold and silver flowing south, out of their lands and straight to Rome.

[ReignOfError]

Tha old testament covenant laws were applicable only to the nation of Israel. They are not applicable to the modern church.

So I guess that's the end of using Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, right?

[The Lumster]

So I guess that's the end of using Leviticus to condemn homosexuality, right?

I've never used Leviticus to condemn homosexuality because there are plenty of new testament scriptures that work just as well.

See Matthew 19:5; Romans 1:27; 1Cor 6:9; Gal 5:19 just to name a few

[redpoll]

Here's just my two cents. Islam believes that it is the infallible word of God, unchangeable, eternal. However, in a nuclear exchange between the infidels and Islam, what would happen if nukes obliterated Mecca and Medina? How can you go to hajj when the site is now a crater in the desert? (Sure, you could go to the site - but all the obligations that you have to do under Islamic tradition during hajj wouldn't be possible.) That would seriously crimp the Islamic belief system.

Another possibility comes from the "us and them" approach in Islam. For the first few centuries of its existance, much of the Islamic expansion took place against tribal chiefs or empires that were old and exhausted. The West may be long in the tooth (at least the Western European wing), but I wouldn't say that the Chinese, Australians, Japanese, Koreans, Indians, or Americans are about just roll over and become Islamized, even after a nuclear exchange. In fact, I could easily see a nastier response from those attacked that could be horrific.

One last thought: this is a joke that circulated around 9-11. The Saudi minister was in Washington talking to President Bush. The minister said that he had seen many things, but he had one question. "Why is it on your television show 'Star Trek' the starships have Russians, Africans, Asians, Americans... people from all over the world, but no Arabs?" The president leans over, smiles, and says, "Well, that's because 'Star Trek' takes place in the future."

[mojito]

I think I'll pass that one along.

[ekeni]

I recommend sick jokes at the expanses of Arabs are unproductive. Better to challenge our Muslim participants with the teachings of Jesus such as it is not our hands that are unclean if unwashed before rituals but what comes out of the heart at makes us unclean before God(indeed separates us from God without the grace of Jesus Christ rejected by Islam. These can engage our Muslim aqquaintances/friends to think about their faith and how it compares with the teachings of Jesus (Isa)
Tommy

[2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten]

Islam can be reformed, but won't be reformed till the Islamic upper echelon find it in their interest to reform.

Remember, Martin Luther didn't bring on the Reformation out of whole cloth. It was encouraged, protected, supported, defended, etc. by Germany rulers who were fed up with seeing riverlets of gold and silver flowing south, out of their lands and straight to Rome.

---

Very good point in your seocnd paragraph. I might quibble with what you said in your first paragraph. Seems like the analogy would be that in time we may see secular muslim states grow up - the obvious example was what Ataturk did in Turkey (although things seem to be sliding backwards in that regard now). Secular leaders like Ataturk, it seems to me to be the analogue of the German rulers you mentioned that encouraged Luther.

The key difference here is the cult-like, mafia-like behavior of our adversaries. If you rise to offer secular solutions or programs you stand a good chance of getting killed and all of your followers getting killed. Seems like one of our tasks is to go after the mafia dons that enforce this brutal discipline. If we do this, (and it's going to take a very long time) it seems like we have a decent chance of getting real reform but it may take many generations.

Seems like one of the eternal struggles of human history is how to achieve the proper balance between church and state. The two extremes i.e theocracy on the one hand and our post-modern ultra-secularism on the other hand each have their problems.

[apro]

the obvious example was what Ataturk did in Turkey (although things seem to be sliding backwards in that regard now). Secular leaders like Ataturk, it seems to me to be the analogue of the German rulers you mentioned that encouraged Luther.

Yes, Ataturk, uhm, how many christians are still living in Turkey btw? Oh yeah, 0.2% of the population is mostly Christian (Greek Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic (Gregorian), Syriac Orthodox, Roman Catholics and Protestants), Jewish, Bahá'ís, and the Yezidis. Yes, Turkey's suppose secular system that has made many discrepancies against non Muslem properties title which enabled Turkish authorities to seize them. Hmmm, very telling, IMO. Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I still complains as to why the Turkish government will not re-open the Halki seminary, which had trained Orthodox clergy in Anatolia since the 19th century.

TURKEY’S GREEK COMMUNITY GRAPPLES WITH ADVERSITY

But they can build their Mosques and religious centers without any issues in the West. Dearborn, MI has a freaken minaret, for Godsake, where the Muslem call to prayer can be heard everywhere in metropolitan Detroit but these muzzies won't open a school to train Orthodox clergy, which existed for thousands of years before they ever did....and they are suppose to be the "secular" ones? Unfreaken believable:

Mosque Prayers Irk Michigan City

[apro]

I don't follow what the Pope says and even I understood what he meant by his comments in this interview. I interpreted what he said as such: he is not saying that we do not follow the word of God but God gave us as human beings brains to use, to think and better ourselves, to evolve with time. My grandmother always had a little story she would tell which is similar to this way of thinking; A man was drowning and he looked up towards the Heavens and yells:

"Oh, God! Why don't you save me?!"

To which God responds:

"I gave you a brain to think; arms and legs that work. Move your arms and legs and swim to shore, you fool. Save yourself. Do expect me to do everything for you?"

In other words, yes God giveths but what you do with what God giveths can either save you or destroy you.