Posted on 01/22/2006 8:12:41 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez
Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?
For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.
The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.
The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.
Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.
In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!
So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"
"For what it's worth, there are many fine, Young Earth Creationist. "
I have no doubt that is true. I'm sure many are very nice people. Still, I have no wish to debate with Young Earth Creationists. We are so far apart in our understandings of science that there is no useful discussion to be had.
You're welcome to believe whatever you wish. I don't care. I will dispute you if you try to teach children I care about that YEC is scientific. Other than that, you're welcome to believe whatever you wish.
Dr Wise's doctoral degree in palaeontology was completed at Harvard under Professor Stephen Jay Gould, an evolutionist. The link you read does not contain the hundreds of pages of evidence for a young earth that Dr. Wise and others have written.
If you are interested in digging deeper to hear evidence for a young earth, Dr. Wise has great books and writings from a scientific standpoint.
"If you are interested in digging deeper to hear evidence for a young earth, Dr. Wise has great books and writings from a scientific standpoint.
"
Perhaps I'll look further into his writings, once I clear the huge pile of unread books on geology and mineralogy I have here. Based on his opening words, however, he is approaching his subject from the point of view of someone who has already decided his conclusion, and that conclusion is based on the Bible, a sovereignly non-scientific book.
I have read some Wise material in the past, however, and have not been at all impressed. He is writing apologetics for the Young Earth Creationist viewpoint, not science.
A PhD. does not guarantee that an author is correct. It only indicates that the author has completed his course of study and has been awarded the degree. I'm sure I can point out the names of some folks with PhD.s that you will consider fools.
Credentialism is a pretty common logical flaw. If I compare the writings of Dr. Wise with the huge volume of research and writing of others in that field, I'm afraid Dr. Wise comes out the loser.
However, when I get through my pile of reading, I'll see about one of his books.
Pastor Watkins is also a theological liberal.
I would be interested to hear your opinion on some of the processes that occurred, which were formerly thought to require great amounts of time, after Mt. Saint Helens errupted in 1980?
Genesis 1: 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (the third day)
Genesis 2: When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [b] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth ...But for Adam [h] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
In the second version, the day is unknown, but definitely not at the same time as the creation of Adam, which in ancient Hebrew meant: from ''adam' (119); ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.):--X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person. "
I don't know what God meant us to see out of this, but probably NOT that God created man and woman, and then did it again, but differently at a different time.
"I would be interested to hear your opinion on some of the processes that occurred, which were formerly thought to require great amounts of time, after Mt. Saint Helens errupted in 1980?"
Really? Are you talking about comparing the formation of the Grand Canyon to the erosion of the unconsolidated stuff from Mount Saint Helens? If so, I have nothing to discuss with you.
Go to your back yard. Pile up some sand, then turn the garden hose on it. Now, pile up some concrete blocks. Turn the garden hose on that. There is your answer.
I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I didn't say that you were rude, or spewing. I was more concerned with the fact that many on these threads say something provocative and then when asked for clarification or elaboration tend to disappear. Since you are here, I am obviously not saying that you do that. In fact, I appreciate your contribution to the discussion.
Wow! You are like one of those "freedom of speechers" who really only wants freedom of speech for yourself. You are such an angry man! I feel sad for you!
106 posted on 01/22/2006 3:28:49 PM MST by GarySpFc (De Oppresso Liber
Jesus attributed the 5 books to Mosesb'shem Y'shuaWhether or not a biblical critic wants to take Jesus' word
for anything is up to the individual. But no less than Jesus authenticated the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch.
Jesus divided the Old Testament into three sections in Luke 24:44: Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms.
Also, he attributed all the individual JEDP defined sections of the Pentateuch to Moses.In Mark 10:4-8, Jesus quoted Gen. 2:24, which would be J, as coming from Moses. Mark 7:10,
Jesus quoted the Ten Commandments, which fall into the E category, as coming from Moses.
In Mark 10:3, Jesus refers to Deut. 24:1f, which would be D, as being from Moses.
In Matt. 8:4, Jesus quoted Lev. 14, which would be equivalent to P, as coming from Moses.This is a brief look at the Documentary Hypothesis.
In my opinion, it is a fabrication based upon false presuppositions and inaccurate analysis.
It contradicts what Jesus said and it is an unreliable way to analyze a document that is thousands of years old.
I'm sorry that I thought you meant me! After cooking a large meal and cleaning up, I was a little put off thinking you meant me! LOL!
For your amusement:-)
Of course, that's not all there is to it, and Jesus also laid out some pretty simple rules of how to live one's life. Knowing that nobody could live a perfect life, Jesus made it simple. One merely had to love God and fellow man with all one's heart. And...when one inevitably failed in this, Jesus would fill in the gaps through his death and resurrection.
The rest is just extension of the two commandments Jesus offered.
How is it that a godless atheist understands Christianity better than most of the Christians I know?
The world has not yet been created.
we diverge at this point......I believe the bible is completely accurate..... particularly as it is inspired by God himself who is perfect.....just short on details sometimes.
(I thought some of the comments might amuse you.)
I have always viewed the different creation stories as emphasizing different moments of the total picture. Any aspect of the world could be the focus. For example, one might be the origin of the external world, another of the internal world, another of language.
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