The high cost of losing our religion

Sydney Morning Herald ^ | January 19, 2005 | Julia Baird jbaird@smh.com.au

[jb6]

Such "strong words" are simply a wretched expression of powerlessness

No, it implies having lived there and seen how the Turks lord over those around them. I had enough German friends and Germans with whom I had work contact on a regular basis to hear quite a few horror stories. The reality it:

But here is the drink you'll be getting soon enough.

[jb6]

Just keep in mind, you're Gondor.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Oh and one of the things I just "loved" was when the Turks started crap with us in German clubs, we, the American GIs got banned not the Turks.

Is this the reason why you hate Germany, the EU and Europe that much?

BTW - if somebody started to crap with me I used to flatten him. After having done that you earned usually that much respect that the barkeeper give you your beers for free. It pays off to be not a sissy.

The majority of Germany's immigration is Turks, Kurds and Bosnian Muslims.

This is wrong. The majority of current immigration into Germany are former Russians with German heritage (so called "Aussiedler"). Under Katharina II many Germans went to Russia. Now they are flowing back.

[Atlantic Bridge]

History doesn't lie.

Examples please.

[TomSmedley]

Most Turks in Germany are assimilated, peaceful and decent people. I employ some in my own business and I know what I am talking about.

I am taking private lessons in Turkish from a charming young couple here on a student visa. I intend to compare Atatürk's "Six Day Speech" to similar masterworks by Christian historical figures (Augustine, Calvin, Luther, Rushdoony) in a doctoral dissertation. The Turks I've met have been great people, with a talent for friendship. Just remember to take your shoes off at the door!

[GarySpFc]

There was a self-consciousness in the 60's and 70's among Christians based on their moral commitments. The challenge that religion had become stuffy and status quo was valid. Christians knew it and were embarrassed. Matters spun out of control. Radicals and extremists took over the field and spouted their aantiestablishment tirades. The church was nonplussed.

I disagree. Every time Satan comes up with a new lie it takes time for the church to recognize, define, find ways to bring the lie into the light, and develop solid responses. Evolution is but one such lie, and Creationism was a failed response by the church to the public. However, the new response is Intelligent Design in nature, and it is obvious to everyone except the committed atheist who is determined to eradicate God from his/her conscious. The public has grasped the concept, and that is why evolution as a theory is on its death bed.

The moral bankruptcy of the "God is Dead" has been obvious for some time. Christian theologians have been bringing the lie into the light, and in the last few years they have been able to articulate better responses. These responses and how to articulate them take time to filter down from out seminaries.

[GarySpFc]

All this "Eurabia" propaganda is BS. It is correct that we Europeans have a problem with young muslims on our continent since they are usually undereducated and unemployed. This is the reason why they get aggressive - just as some minorities in the US (do you remember the Los Angeles riots in 1992?).

Your European view is so typical of why our forefathers left their homes and came to America. In attributing your social problems to lack of education you show the bankruptcy of your views. America listened to that liberal mantra, and spent at least a trillion dollars attempting to solves our social problems with money. The result was a total failure. You cannot solve moral problems with money.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Your European view is so typical of why our forefathers left their homes and came to America. In attributing your social problems to lack of education you show the bankruptcy of your views. America listened to that liberal mantra, and spent at least a trillion dollars attempting to solves our social problems with money. The result was a total failure. You cannot solve moral problems with money.

Is there a relation to the discussed issue? Have I said that we should spend a trillon dollars on Turks in Europe? BTW - Your forefathers came to America because they did not get the chance of education and freedom in Europe. Why should it be that bad to give those things to immigrants in Germany? You cannot balance your lack of arguments with emotional stammering.

[GarySpFc]

The majority of current immigration into Germany are former Russians with German heritage (so called "Aussiedler"). Under Katharina II many Germans went to Russia. Now they are flowing back.

Volga Germans.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Volga Germans.

Exactly.

[GarySpFc]

Is there a relation to the discussed issue? Have I said that we should spend a trillon dollars on Turks in Europe? BTW - Your forefathers came to America because they did not get the chance of education and freedom in Europe. Why should it be that bad to give those things to immigrants in Germany? You cannot balance your lack of arguments with emotional stammering.

My point has gone completely over your head. Europe is spiritually dead, and does not realize they have a serious clash of cultures developing. You simply cannot reconcile Christian and Muslim values. As a theologian I have studied both, and Europe does not recognize their is a vast gulf between the two, which will become more evident over time.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Europe is spiritually dead.

Just tell this to our Pope Benedict or to the Poles.

As a theologian I have studied both.

Which church are you belonging to?

[GarySpFc]

I am a member of the church of Christ, but I have studied all of the theology for all of the major denominations. BTW, one of my best friends held the St. Thomas Aquinas Chair at Harvard. I have also worked on two major Bible translations. Even Pope Benedict believes Europe has a major spiritual problem. Here is but one article you might read, which shows Europe's moral bankruptcy.

Prophet of Decline An interview with Oriana Fallaci.

[GarySpFc]

Please read the complete article at the link.

Pope Benedict XVI: Enemy of Jihad

In choosing Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to succeed Pope John Paul II as Pope Benedict XVI, the Catholic Church has cast a vote for the survival of Europe and the West. “Europe will be Islamic by the end of the century,” historian Bernard Lewis predicted not long ago; however, judging from the writings of the new Pope, he is not likely to be sanguine about this transition. For one thing, the new Pope seems to be aware of the grave danger Europeans face: he has called upon Europe to recover its Christian roots “if it truly wants to survive.”

For while his predecessor kissed the Qur’an and pursued a consistent line of conciliation toward the Islamic world, despite numerous provocations and attacks against Catholics in Muslim countries, the new Pope Benedict XVI, while no less charitable, has been a bit more forthcoming about the reality of how Islam challenges the Catholic Church, Christianity, and even the post-Christian West. He has spoken up for the rights of converts from Islam to Christianity, who live under a death sentence in Islamic countries and increasingly live in fear even in the West. He has even spoken approvingly of Christians proselytizing Muslims — a practice that enrages Muslims and is against the law in many Islamic countries.

The new Pope has criticized Europe’s reluctance to acknowledge its Christian roots for fear of offending Islam’s rapidly growing and increasingly influential presence in European countries — a presence which, as historian Bat Ye’or demonstrates in her book Eurabia, has been actively encouraged and facilitated by European leaders for over three decades. “What offends Islam,” said Cardinal Ratzinger, “is the lack of reference to God, the arrogance of reason, which provokes fundamentalism.” He has criticized multiculturalism, “which is so constantly and passionately encouraged and supported,” because it “sometimes amounts to an abandonment and disavowal of what is our own.”

He contrasts the modern-day resurgence of Islam with the enervation of Europe. In old Europe, he has said, “we are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as definitive and has as its highest value one’s own ego and one's own desires.” Islam, on the other hand, is anything but relativistic: “The rebirth of Islam is due in part to the new material richness acquired by Muslim countries, but mainly to the knowledge that it is able to offer a valid spiritual foundation for the life of its people, a foundation that seems to have escaped from the hands of old Europe.”

:::snip::::

Europe, the new Pope has written, “appears to be at the start of its decline and fall.” It may be too late, as Bat Ye’or believes, to arrest that decline and fall. However, the first thing a physician does when he treats a disease is identify the problem. No healing can proceed from a misdiagnosis. It is heartening to see that Pope Benedict XVI has already, in various speeches and writings before his accession to the papacy, dared to speak more clearly about the threat that Islam poses to Western civilization than his predecessor — for all his many and remarkable gifts — ever quite managed to do.

[x5452]

The Pope and Russian Orthodox church are already cooperating on promoting church vlaues due to their sad state of declient across Europe.

[Atlantic Bridge]

This is all nothing new. It was always the intention of Benedict XVI and John Paul II to anchor Christianity in the European constitution. This is one of the reasons why Benedict wants to keep Turkey out of the union since both laicism and islam are antithetic to references of Christianity. BTW - Israel would have the same problem like Turkey with the church if they ever wanted to enter the EU (which was already in the discussion). Furthermore we do not have to argue about the fact that Islamic fundamentalism is a horrible ideology that has to be battled against with all means. This is not the question.

The thing is that both popes - John Paul as well as Benedict searched the contact with Islam and its representants. The reason for this is simple. We only can put them the good news of our belief across if we talk with them and if we keep the contact.

Those religious questions have nothing to do with everyday life in western Europe. We have religious liberty. It is the free decision of our citizens in which religion or god they believe in or not. I do not mind if somebody prays to his toilet although as a Christ I would appreciate if all people would find to the truth I found. We Christians in Europe invite everybody to share our cognitions, but we do not force anybody to do so. Enforced churchgoing is useless and I feel it as a insult of my God.

Some of the Turks ("fearsome" 2.4% of our population - source CIA-factbook) in Germany visit their small mosques for their friday prayer. They attack nobody, they force nobody and they arrange themselves with German everyday life since they are no fundamentalists. They have their own religion but they force nobody to adopt their beliefs. Just like we Christians do. It is a simple fact that a multiethnic population makes life more interesting. Now we have not only Bratwurst and Beer but also Doener and Ouzo.

Of course you always have to deal with some fanatics. Take a look on this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1560820/posts?page=26#26

As you see - we will survive the Turkish invasion.

Love it or hate it. I could not imagine a better place for me than in "Eurarabia".

[Atlantic Bridge]

I am a member of the church of Christ, but I have studied all of the theology for all of the major denominations. BTW, one of my best friends held the St. Thomas Aquinas Chair at Harvard. I have also worked on two major Bible translations. Even Pope Benedict believes Europe has a major spiritual problem. Here is but one article you might read, which shows Europe's moral bankruptcy. Prophet of Decline An interview with Oriana Fallaci.

Well I never studied theology, but I read Bible as well as the Koran and the Hadiths. Since I studied mathematics, engineering, architecture and fine arts I expect facts if somebody wants to change my opinion. If those facts are conclusive I am intelligent enough to adopt a new point of view. If you have studied theology you will probably heared about Sokrates too: "I know that I know nothing." - but I know enough that I do not swallow every propaganda pie.

I can not follow you in your argumentation since you fail to produce convincing facts to your thesis that Europe will be islamized. Emotional articles are simply no proof. Sorry. Since I live in Europe and God gave me two bright eyes I can judge the situation much better than you.

Therefore my -really friendly- advice to you: Be careful to spread information that you can not validate by yourself.

[Clemenza]

In Washington State, 28% of the population is "non-religious" making them the largest "religious grouping" in the state.