Posted on 01/12/2006 11:26:24 AM PST by Michael81Dus
Germany's new Chancellor Angela Merkel, due for a warm welcome in the Bush White House tomorrow, represents a new political phenomenon in her country. Her government embraces her conservative Christian Democrats (CDU) with their Bavarian allies in the Christian Social Union, and the Social Democrats, the first time such lineup in 37 years.
It is quite unlike its predecessor, the Red/Green coalition of 1998-2005, in which the ranks were filled with "sixty-eighters,"offspring of the 1968 anti-Vietnam War and anti-establishment student revolt, in whose new-leftist hearts dislike and distrust of America lingered.
Germany's relations with Washington have nearly always been better with CDU-run governments.
(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...
Agreed.
Maybe it's too early for me, but I am not understanding what you are saying at all. I'll try some coffee and check back later.
Designating the bomb targets in baghdad wasn't enough ?
"Exactly. You wanna tell me something, freema?"
"And Star, isn´t this all about you saying Good-Bye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world: keeping people behind bars if convicted or in preparation of a soon trial and that people are innocent until guilt proven? I don´t wish to defend these nice guys in Gitmo, but you compel me to do so as long as you don´t treat them with the judicial standards you used to spread around the world. I guess (and have read it in several papers) the difference between you and me is, that I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement. You say law doesn´t apply in this fight. Haven´t you also put Japanese in camps during WW2? Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory. The urge to fight your enemies by all means is understandable, of course. But you shouldn´t forget our standards."
I hope you got a good night's sleep, Michael. I am excited Merkel has come to visit.
I can see why you would think it very well could be about 'saying goodbye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world', Michael, because that sums up in a nutshell how it felt in America on the morning of September 11, 2001. I understood your comment about the white vest. I would alter that statement however. While you see mud on our vest, if you take a closer look....you'll see what we see.... our own blood.
I don't understand your remark about over-reaction in defending ourselves when we're attacked. Having just been in a sniper thread, where the catch phrase being discussed was: "You can run, but you die tired" sums up our philosophy of eliminating an enemy combatant who does not abide by the rules of engagement. Those at Gitmo aren't dead. They're sitting on prayer rugs, having nice meals, and bitching because they haven't been able to get their 72 virgins.
We shouldn't forget your standards?! We are well aware that we are expected to shoulder the burden. We don't expect Germany to stand up and share in the burden. We expect we will, at any given point, need to CYA. We really don't appreciate being critiqued on how we should do that. We paid the lion's share to rid the world of problems years ago, and we're doing it again. We would certainly hope Germany's assistance would have been (and still might be) forthcoming, but we can't expect it, and we take whatever assistance does come with a smile.
They are being treated better here than in their own country in most cases. There is no law governing the handling of TERRORISTS who are NOT CRIMINALS nor are they POW's. Maybe law needs to be written. But you can't get that simple fact thru your head and that's why this discussion cannot be a real debate. You have to understand the basis of their detention, which you do not.
I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement
Wrong. As you have been told MANY times on this thread. This is a war, not a police action.
Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory.
I don't think you really want to go there. Do you? If you do, then let's discuss how Germany handled their own citizens, the German Jews, who they decided were their enemies.
Nazi reference? Your words, not mine.
Unlike the US, Germany has significantly changed its politcial system and catalogue of rights for its citizens after WW2. So we cannot compare grenades (Nazis) with oranges (Germany today).
You say my perceiption is wrong. I say yours is wrong. This is exactly the point we disagree on. There don´t have to be laws written about terrorists who are neither POW nor criminals. Terrorists are criminals, if they´re not by chance POW. We have a paragraph in our penal code making the membership in a foreign or domestic terrorist organization a crime. Yesterday, the first was convicted for that (7 years).
No, you shouldn´t forget our standards. You shouldn´t forget OUR (you incl.) standards. Except this, I think it´s all said and done on this. I can leave it by that. After all, we here cannot change anything on it. Let´s wait and see who turns out to be right.
You're putting them in your prisons, with your 'citizen' criminals?
Yep.
You wrote:
'We paid the lion's share to rid the world of problems years ago, and we're doing it again. We would certainly hope Germany's assistance would have been (and still might be) forthcoming, but we can't expect it, and we take whatever assistance does come with a smile.'
with deepest respect to a great nation (I mean it !):
Don't forget that you, the US of A allways stood to your way of life and that was, what won our hearts after you freed our country in 49. I am not that old but I carried the one or other star spangled banner in my mind - as every free spirit in the world secretly or openly admires the american spirit. Boy I loved those westerns where john wayne fenced of the mob. And when the WTC fell the parking lot in front of the supermarket was full of star spangled banners on cars. There was wide spread compassion and even our lefty chancelor schroeder had to shed a tear on that.
There's so much love to regain in germany - believe me these folks love the texas rangers with their strong urge to fight with the bare fist - you could win our support for iraq very easily - as easy as you won our support in afghanistan. Sometimes I think it wasn't welcome in the first place.
How else can it be explained that we where not consulted but simply asked to join the war in iraq after we took a role in afghanistan that was exceeding all our after WWII military roles so far ?
How else could one more efficiently block our hearts for support ?
Maybe Schröder blocked the consultations - even likely so - but if you like to share the risks of war you must share some of the leadership.
We cannot be addressed as underlings. That was, what people heard when W. had us adressed as the axis of weasels - it was taken as either you follow us blind or we will have vays to make you...
Sharing your responsibilites would mean to share your rights aswell.
Were the star spangles sympathy or empathy?
"Maybe Schröder blocked the consultations - even likely so - but if you like to share the risks of war you must share some of the leadership."
Gosh, I'm struck by cliques today. "Too many chiefs, not enough Indians......too many cooks spoil the soup." Leadership shared? I can't remember what Germany was offering.
"Sharing your responsibilites would mean to share your rights as well."
Another clique, courtesy of the USMC:
'Earned. Not given.'
They're not "inmates". They're non - uniformed combatants, i.e guerillas. Under the Geneva Convention, they can be shot out of hand [A mistake we made in Viet Nam when we didn't shoot the VC we took]. I realize with Europe's rather bloody history, you try to look at things differently, but war isn't burglary, and these clowns aren't criminals who violated a penal code. Nor are they uniformed soldiers of a nation state. They're Al Queda thugs, and they're at Gitmo for two reasons: to keep them from being someplace else [and several we released have gone back in the "bag" again], and to squeeze intelligence out of them. They're not there serving time for a "crime".
As for the problem, if you don't come to the dance, don't complain about the music. While I appreciate Germany's contributions in Afghanistan, the truth is that militarily, you can no longer keep up with us on a battlefield [too much money on socialist welfare programs, too little on your military], so, as I said to a friend from England, Rome doesn't ask Gaul for permission to wage war on Parthia [or how to do it]. As for problems, if I were you guys, I'd worry about your birthrate going down the toilet, your burgeoning [and reproducing] Islamiat influx, and your buddy to the East, Putin. I don't think Germany and most of Old Europe should necessarily count on us to bail them out again if something goes wrong [although we probably will.
OUR porblem is winning the war on terror. Since we're doing it without you folks, butt out.
those who say 'earned - not given' often just don't like to give.
AND !
no im not going to argue here - see, it was empathy. I am not the guy who needs his national pride to be bolsterd - it's not that weak.
I can frankly state my admiration to the free north american spirit without choking. I recognize the worthy things in americas role and I pay the due respect.
Can you do that too - or are the cliques all you have ?
them's fightin' words, baby.
evasive actions ! I am so disapointed ...
Yeah, cliques are all I've got today. LOL!
Good for you that you can frankly state your admiration to the free north american spirit without choking. I can't.
LMAO. Evasive actions!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.