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Raising the volume on what men think about feminism
The Age ^ | Sushi Das

Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway

SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.

'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."

If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.

Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"

And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."

The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.

I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.

In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,

but how many can really be blamed on feminism?

Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.

On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.

Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.

Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.

With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: feminism; genderwars; hemangirlhatersclub; jealouswimminsequel; men; sexes; women
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To: music is math

You can't win, you know...


321 posted on 01/10/2006 8:51:52 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: Sapirit
If this is not women bashing, objectifying and hatred, then what is it?

Objectively, it's none of those.

322 posted on 01/10/2006 8:55:20 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: unixfox
"...change her own damn flat tires..."

And she could tell you to do your own laundry, cook your own meals, stay home from work...the baby's sick, attend the parent-teacher mtg., buy and send the birthday, anniversary, sympathy, Christmas cards.

Guess I don't define "equal" as you do. Generally speaking, men surpass women's abilities in many areas. The same goes for women. Different, yes, but one is not automatically BETTER than the other. It should be a joint effort to get things done, IMO.

What do you think?

323 posted on 01/10/2006 8:56:47 PM PST by IIntense (a)
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To: Melas
What an idiot I must be. I open doors for everyone. Men, women, children, it doesn't matter. I'll stop to help anyone with a flat as well, regardless of gender or age.

You can, of course, do as you please.

324 posted on 01/10/2006 8:58:26 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
They're chasing a dream. - A shallow, selfish dream about what relationships really should be like between men and women.

I'll agree that relationships in this country have never been harder to make last for the long haul. I'll also agree that there are a lot of people that are really screwed up in the head about what makes them work. I just don't agree that men who are unwilling to learn how to make relationships work with women in this country will have any long term success in finding a woman overseas either.

What an amazingly insulting analysis that was...overengineered, overwrought and underthought. The simple answer is always the place to start...in this case, that many men now understand how relationships work with many modern women. As a result of what they perceive, they have said, "No thanks."

There's no need to insult them.

325 posted on 01/10/2006 9:04:14 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: television is just wrong
..In the long run, there will be several generations lonely..

And the long run begins now. I myself have no expectation of finding anyone. I have my children, and a grandchild, and my friends, and work ... but I get tired, sometimes, of sleeping alone; tired of waking up alone.

I'd have to say that about half the people I knew forty years ago are alone today. Men and women; not 'society's losers' by any means, educated, comfortable financially .. just alone.

Why is that, if things are so much better now than in 1950?

Again, the best to you and your husband; it's a comfort to know that marriages like yours are still out there.

326 posted on 01/10/2006 9:07:39 PM PST by MrNatural ("...You want the truth!?...")
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To: luckystarmom
Men in their twenties need to step up the plate and start having real meaningful relationships with women in the 20s. Then they can get married and have babies.

With all due respect, they would have to be chumps. A society that requires that men be chumps to perpetuate the species is doomed.

327 posted on 01/10/2006 9:09:46 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: RinaseaofDs
Ford tried something like this in the 1980's: "We're crap, but we're American - so buy us."

What's more, they both keep insulting prospective clients.

328 posted on 01/10/2006 9:11:44 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
My concern is that as long as the feminist movement exists, there will be a counter movement among FReeper men that is equally and oppositely destructive to our political goals because it drives women away.

Whether one approved of what we call traditional families, no one can deny that they worked. If there's a gender war going on today (and there obviously is) it's because roles have been redefined by women with little or no input from men.

Men have seen the result, and are saying in increasing numbers, "No thanks."

329 posted on 01/10/2006 9:15:37 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: gogeo

I actually agree it's not one of the '10 best posts by HairOfTheDog'. It's wordy and "overwrought" as you say. It's difficult to articulate exactly what I think about it and remain tactful.


330 posted on 01/10/2006 9:19:51 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: gogeo

I'm sorry you think we are so doomed. As a happily married person, I couldn't disagree more.


331 posted on 01/10/2006 9:21:25 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: Galveston Grl

Wow...you've managed to define those who don't agree with you as posessing various pathologies. Is it any wonder that sensible men want no part of that?


332 posted on 01/10/2006 9:23:06 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: MrNatural

There is nothing wrong with the 50's. We are just told that there are things wrong with it.

Geesh, kids had moms and dads, moms stayed home, dads worked, kids went to school, more semblance to life.

Compared to single parent families, or gay/lesbian families??

We are being told a lie.


333 posted on 01/10/2006 9:24:27 PM PST by television is just wrong (Our sympathies are misguided with illegal aliens...)
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To: HairOfTheDog
You quoted them as if to support them as examples of "traditional societies" men are seeking brides from. If you don't want a bride from those countries, you should have been more clear. You've had the opportunity to clarify, but you're instead blaming me. Sheeesh.

Yes, blame him for the straw men you constructed.

334 posted on 01/10/2006 9:27:40 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: luckystarmom
Dr. Laura's book the one about taking care of husbands is pretty good.

She added respect to that list. I think it's a great book.

335 posted on 01/10/2006 9:33:40 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: handk

Thank you for the post.


336 posted on 01/10/2006 9:37:16 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: handk

Another great post.


337 posted on 01/10/2006 9:39:04 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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To: guitfiddlist
Conversely, men would be fools to keep playing the same marriage game with a stacked deck.

That's why younger men, myself included, aren't (and won't be) getting married, marriage mafia be damned.

338 posted on 01/10/2006 9:40:02 PM PST by music is math
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To: Melas
"What an idiot I must be."

Dear Melas, You are NOT an idiot. Nothing wrong with opening doors for whoever. I do and don't give it a second thought. Help fix a flat? Thank God for people like you. Just be careful; the unsavory types get flats too.

339 posted on 01/10/2006 9:43:08 PM PST by IIntense (a)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

You sound like a very nice lady.


340 posted on 01/10/2006 9:43:10 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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