Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
You can't win, you know...
Objectively, it's none of those.
And she could tell you to do your own laundry, cook your own meals, stay home from work...the baby's sick, attend the parent-teacher mtg., buy and send the birthday, anniversary, sympathy, Christmas cards.
Guess I don't define "equal" as you do. Generally speaking, men surpass women's abilities in many areas. The same goes for women. Different, yes, but one is not automatically BETTER than the other. It should be a joint effort to get things done, IMO.
What do you think?
You can, of course, do as you please.
I'll agree that relationships in this country have never been harder to make last for the long haul. I'll also agree that there are a lot of people that are really screwed up in the head about what makes them work. I just don't agree that men who are unwilling to learn how to make relationships work with women in this country will have any long term success in finding a woman overseas either.
What an amazingly insulting analysis that was...overengineered, overwrought and underthought. The simple answer is always the place to start...in this case, that many men now understand how relationships work with many modern women. As a result of what they perceive, they have said, "No thanks."
There's no need to insult them.
And the long run begins now. I myself have no expectation of finding anyone. I have my children, and a grandchild, and my friends, and work ... but I get tired, sometimes, of sleeping alone; tired of waking up alone.
I'd have to say that about half the people I knew forty years ago are alone today. Men and women; not 'society's losers' by any means, educated, comfortable financially .. just alone.
Why is that, if things are so much better now than in 1950?
Again, the best to you and your husband; it's a comfort to know that marriages like yours are still out there.
With all due respect, they would have to be chumps. A society that requires that men be chumps to perpetuate the species is doomed.
What's more, they both keep insulting prospective clients.
Whether one approved of what we call traditional families, no one can deny that they worked. If there's a gender war going on today (and there obviously is) it's because roles have been redefined by women with little or no input from men.
Men have seen the result, and are saying in increasing numbers, "No thanks."
I actually agree it's not one of the '10 best posts by HairOfTheDog'. It's wordy and "overwrought" as you say. It's difficult to articulate exactly what I think about it and remain tactful.
I'm sorry you think we are so doomed. As a happily married person, I couldn't disagree more.
Wow...you've managed to define those who don't agree with you as posessing various pathologies. Is it any wonder that sensible men want no part of that?
There is nothing wrong with the 50's. We are just told that there are things wrong with it.
Geesh, kids had moms and dads, moms stayed home, dads worked, kids went to school, more semblance to life.
Compared to single parent families, or gay/lesbian families??
We are being told a lie.
Yes, blame him for the straw men you constructed.
She added respect to that list. I think it's a great book.
Thank you for the post.
Another great post.
That's why younger men, myself included, aren't (and won't be) getting married, marriage mafia be damned.
Dear Melas, You are NOT an idiot. Nothing wrong with opening doors for whoever. I do and don't give it a second thought. Help fix a flat? Thank God for people like you. Just be careful; the unsavory types get flats too.
You sound like a very nice lady.
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