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1- Better body armor, like wearing a Bradley, would have protected the Marines. 2- If the report wasn't released to the public, how did Reuters get it, and when will the investigation start? 3- WHat freakin' critics? Can we name somebody please?
1 posted on 01/07/2006 4:53:07 AM PST by benjamin032
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To: benjamin032

"We take operational security very seriously and will not discuss in public sensitive issues that may render any insight to the enemy about our capabilities, fielding plans, or tactics, techniques and procedures."


Another patriotic whistleblower. Time for the President to perform his duties and have these people frog marched into custody. The Dems have declared open season on National Security and the safety of the troops.


2 posted on 01/07/2006 5:05:29 AM PST by Wristpin ("The Yankees have decided to buy every player in Baseball....")
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To: benjamin032
1- Better body armor, like wearing a Bradley, would have protected the Marines.

Yeah, and obviously, none of these dorks have ever walked around in 120 degree heat wearing 40 pounds of armor - BEFORE you strap on your basic load of ammo, water, etc.

3 posted on 01/07/2006 5:20:02 AM PST by Terabitten (Illegal immigration causes Representation without Taxation.)
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To: benjamin032

I actually blame the terrorist enemy for the deaths.


5 posted on 01/07/2006 5:24:24 AM PST by KC_Conspirator
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To: benjamin032

MSM: Bash the military, bash Bush, bash the war effort......the beat goes on.


6 posted on 01/07/2006 5:26:28 AM PST by armydawg1 (" America must win this war..." PVT Martin Treptow, KIA, WW1)
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To: benjamin032

In 1942, our fleet got their clocks cleaned at the Battle of Savo Island by the Japanese. It was then, and remains to this day, one of the biggest military disasters for the USA.

There were so many things that went wrong, so many areas to lay blame (and did have blame assigned in inquests) that it seems not much different than the witchhunts one might see today.

One of the things that came up is how unprepared for war our ships were. We had thick coats of paint all over the inside and outside of ships. There were linoleum floors. Various rooms had overstuffed furniture in them. When the ships caught on fire, all of these things burned ferociously and were responsible for the deaths of many men.

When they tried to put the fires out, the equipment was inadequate for the job. It wasn't designed correctly, and men died.

The point is, these were lessons we learned in the crucible of warfare. There is often no other way to learn these lessons, and the lessons are hard, particularly for the men who die and the families who are left behind. But that is war.

One might argue that we knew how to design body armor before this war. Perhaps that is true, but it might be that we had reached the point of diminishing returns where throwing larger and larger sums of money at a problem produces smaller and smaller returns on the investment, all the low hanging fruit is gone. Sure, we could have had better armor, but at what cost? Would we have replaced all the units that probably were not all that old or used with newer units at twice the cost with 5-8% more protective value? If you are a person with a gun in your hand, the answer is yes.

But the problem with these things is that us civilians, including politicians, see these them one dimensionally. We tend to see them as isolated problems, when in fact, there are many things like this, and none can be fixed for free. We only see the armor or whatever the issue-du-jour is, but there are also (and these are not real, I am just making them up as examples of things that might be):

Defective guidance devices for JDAMS that could cause friendly casualties that must be addressed.

More armor and upgraded humvees.

Hydraulic weaknesses in Apache helicopters that put pilots at risk.

Expensive parts that must be replaced due to high wear and tear in an abrasive environment, where failure could put the users at risk.

And so on.

Now take those, and imagine how many more things there are out there, given how HUGE the military is, that have the capability of causing lost lives if some component is not performing as expected.

As far as I am concerned, this is part of an emotional anti-military anti-administration witch hunt.


7 posted on 01/07/2006 5:32:48 AM PST by rlmorel ("Innocence seldom utters outraged shrieks. Guilt does." Whittaker Chambers)
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To: benjamin032
"Better body armor would have protected the Marines"

Should read: Better body armor would have protected Marines that had wounds that would have been protected by better body armor. What a stupid analysis.

8 posted on 01/07/2006 5:43:52 AM PST by norwaypinesavage
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To: benjamin032

The question should be " Do they have the best body armor now available" I believe they do.


Certainly wearing a helmet driving your car and having NASCAR designed roll bars would stop many auto deaths also.


9 posted on 01/07/2006 5:51:44 AM PST by sgtbono2002
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To: benjamin032
You know, the U.S. has been fighting in the middle east for most of the last 15 years. We've fought two wars there, most of our ground force deployments have been there, it's been a central part of our planning for years. Every member of the Army and Marines is issued sets of desert utilities from the get-go because of the likelihood that they'll have to go there. So why is it that whenever you see pictures of our troops over there in almost every single case is their body armor green camouflage? Isn't that telling the opposition "OK, you can shoot him anywhere but the green part?" The fact that body armor isn't widely available in the color most likely to be used is an indication that it isn't a high priority item to the military.
10 posted on 01/07/2006 5:53:27 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: benjamin032
Perfect body armor would have prevented all deaths. It is not as if there is some better body armor sitting on the shelf at cost $5 more per set that we decided not use. Over time, body armor will probably get better and one of the reasons it will get better is because of studies like this one. That does not mean that anyone did anything wrong in designing or using the body armor we are using.

There is always a trade off between protection and mobility. Put too much body armor on the troops and the story will be that lack of mobility causes the death of many US troops.
11 posted on 01/07/2006 5:57:46 AM PST by Ninian Dryhope ("Bush lied, people dyed. Their fingers." The inestimable Mark Steyn)
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To: benjamin032
Most of the fatalities that are caused by IEDs, indirect fire, or other explosives are catestrophic. An M1114 up armored Humvee blown in half by an EFP IED would kill someone wearing a full kevlar body suit, with no exposed skin whatsoever.

Fact of the matter is, body armor is just helping you play the odds. It protects what it can, without making you so slow you can't maneuver. We can't turn our troops into knights in full plate mail. It simply slows them down too far, and invites someone to invent a longbow. I appreciate any tools that are developed to help accomplish the mission while minimizing casualties, but reducing casualties to zero is an impossible goal and an unfair standard.

16 posted on 01/07/2006 6:45:51 AM PST by Steel Wolf (If the Founders had wanted the President to be spying on our phone calls, they would have said so!)
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To: benjamin032
I dunno, talked with my son last weekend. One of his buds took a sniper round in the chest. SAPI plate stopped it cold, knocked him on his ass mind you, but he lived thru it.

Could they wear more, maybe. WOULD they wear more? Likely not.

I have seen several cases where soldiers have died because they left out their back plate to save on weight.
25 posted on 01/07/2006 2:07:58 PM PST by ASOC (The result of choosing between the lesser of two evils, in the end, leaves you with, well, evil.)
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