Posted on 01/03/2006 10:19:32 PM PST by svni
There was an unexpected, big break in declassifications last week. Apparently, after the events at Beslan, the Zamoskvorech'ye court decided to open access to some important documents concerning the investigation of tragedy at Dubrovka ('Nordost'). This is a positive step.
From that which was declassified, it is clear that no one was guilty in the deaths of the hostages. This, in principle, is not news, since that has been the official position since immediately after tragedy.
In turn, human rights activists learned from the declassified procurator's decisions that ambulances arrived at the theatrical center only two hours after the gas attack, and also that the gas used was simply called 'unknown'; therefore (the activists) have decided to sue members of the secret services, and some physicians.
It turns out to be a strange. From the official point of view, that no one is guilty of the (129) deaths. Yet in this case, everyone remembers how it was hinted that it was the fault of the physicians who arrived immediately after the assault. From the human rights activists’ point of view, there are definitely guilty parties, and these are the special forces, in addition to the physicians.
In this case the thought has not occurred to anyone, that the special forces are not the ones making the decision as to when to carry out an assault, and that physicians do not decide when they have to show up at the scene.
The next steps are not difficult to predict. It will be proven in court, what is already now known, that the medics' work was selfless and dedicated, that they did as much as they could in attempting to save the victims. It will then be proven (even though this is already known as well) that the special services soldiers sent to carry out the assault, also did everything correctly, since their basic task at the time of the assault was to prevent the building from getting blown up. And they did.
And so it will once again turn out, as it was recently at Beslan, that all component parts acted heroically - the medics were saving and the special forces soldiers were shooting. But these component parts, correctly functioning, did not solve the puzzle, but brought about a tragedy.
Every time there is any misfortune (especially if its a terror act), for some reason we act as if we were in a Harry Potter book. If you remember, the main villain there was named Voldemort, but everyone feared to pronounce it; therefore the custom was to call him the one whose name cannot be pronounced.
And here we are: everyone pretty much understands everything, but the guilty parties are either no one at all, or they are made out at first to be the medics, then the special forces soldiers.
For example, on the day the police lucklessly attacked an apartment full of terrorists at Makhachkala, the terrorists escaped, but the deputy minister of the Daghestan interior ministry was wounded. Once again, no one was to blame. The police were doing their best to storm the apartment, and it simply just happened.
The fact of the matter is that the one whose name cannot be pronounced every time has a surname, and a job title. These are the people who plan the operation. When it is a terror act, these are members of the operational staff.
Specifically, they make the decision whether to enter into negotiations, or make an assault. It is they, not the special forces, who decide when to perform the assault, and how to explain it later to the people. It is they who decide when to allow medics on the scene.
When Bob Woodward, the great American journalist way back to the days of Watergate (sic), was writing the book 'Bush at War', the main thing that interested him was not of the action of the US Special Forces, but how the decision was made about the beginning of the war in Afghanistan. Who were the people making this decision, how they made it, the chronology of their conferences, who said what, and who raised objections. These are the things that interest Americans; therefore Woodward's books become best sellers.
I am also interested in knowing if there any records remaining of the operation staff conferences at Dubrovka, Beslan, Budenovsk, and Pervomaisk. And I would like to know when access will be opened to these materials, is there some kind of order to their declassification, and how many years do we have to wait. At the very least, I wish that someone would even start to ask these questions.
When people die during terrorist acts, terrorists deserve all blame. The response of others (police, military) should be looked at only to improve future responses, not so much for blame. The handling of responders should be given great amounts of understanding for the time and intelligence limitations of the moment.
Check out svni's links, or her magnus opus: A vanity from a former hostage
Hello, hope you are well and not freezing.
Laughing as I say the sun is shining here, not the rain that hit California.
And trying to not weep for your pain in attempting to find the truth in Russia.
It is doubtful that you will ever find truth there, in time
someone might accidently declassify the reports that you seek.
Have you tried doing the basic Google Search using the names of the reports you need? add the word:
secret
or try:
declassified
On the odd chance that there is a copy floating around.
I wish you luck and safety.
granny
This Theater attack, reminds me of the JFK murder.
This weeks hot version is that Castro/Cuba did it, of course a new book.
The simple truth is that we will never know the truth and if we do hear it, won't know it.
I doubt that Russia will ever allow a trial, it would disclose the secrets of the gas they used and that they will not do.
My guess is that it is/was something that is classed as a WMD and banned.
I am having one of those days that makes seeing dificult, but will try a couple google searches.
Thank you for the ping.......
I agree in general principle; perpetrators of evil are fully responsible for the evil that they do; having said that, I have two caveats...first, the responsible elements of government and society must not ignore the existence of evil. Second, we select, elect, hire and pay individuals in government at all levels, in the military and in private industry to safeguard lives and property in the face of evil. While they may not be 100% effective, there are times and circumstances when such persons and entities, given a trust and special authority (and privileges) display extreme incompetence and negligence that they should be held accountable, not so much for the perpetration of evil, but for the failure to limit evil's success...
Imagine the shepherd that turns a blind eye to to the wolf ravaging his flock, the security guard asleep at his post, the Justice Department Attorney that builds a "wall," between information gathering entities...
There is a new thread about the theater attack in Russia.
The link for the first thread is in post #3.
The last post on thread one, also has info about the trial.
I wouldn't know what was of value to the search, if I found it.
http://www.google.com/search?client=googlet&q=investigation%20of%20tragedy%20at%20Dubrovka%20
http://www.google.com/search?client=googlet&q=secret%20files%20on%20investigation%20of%20tragedy%20at%20Dubrovka
Is the Training Manual about the middle of the page of value?
http://www.google.com/search?q=declassified+files+on+investigation+of+tragedy+at+Dubrovka&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&client=googlet
Best wishes, Svni.
I'm sorry for your loss.
I would be interested in future development pings, please.
Granny, thanks for the ping.
Svetlana, I was not aware of your story until now. My sympathy and my prayers go out to you.
I think you may have opened some eyes.
Trying to sue the medics and grunts is asking for trouble, IMHO. Since Russian law doesn't seem to allow for discovery, all it manages to do is get a mess of rotten PR.No one is guilty in the deaths of the hostages
The 'Nordost' case (Kommersant (subscription only, sorry), May 6th, 2005Yesterday the Zamoskvorech'ye court in Moscow acknowledged that members of the special forces and doctors do not bear any responsibility for the loss of 129 persons during the 2002 hostage rescue action at the Dubrovka theatrical center (where the play 'Nordost' was showing). Svetlana Gubareva - whose 13-year-old daughter Alexandra and US fiancé Sandy Booker died during the special operation - received this answer in junction with the refusal of her complaint before the court.
Recall that the claimant requested the court overturn the decisions of the Moscow attorney general's office to not seek prosecution of physicians and soldiers. Like many victims, she assumes that her loved ones did not die at the hands of the terrorists, but as a result of the rescue operation. The refusal to bring charges against medical workers was signed by the Moscow attorney general's office on December 31st, 2002. The case against members of the special forces ended on October 16th, 2003, when investigation showed that the special forces 'acted in accordance with extreme necessity'. Svetlana Gubareva further requested that the court to recognize as illegal the actions of Vladimir Kalchuk, head of the city attorney's investigation into the terror act at Dubrovka. According to her, Kalchuk has undertaken any actions on a petition sent to him in September of 2003, requesting that he explain the circumstances of the loss of her loved ones.
The court, it seems, did everything possible for a detailed examination of the complaint. It introduced documents about the loss of the plaintiff’s loved ones, and - after granting the defense's request - questioned Inspector Vladimir Kalchuk (see the issue from April 18th). The inspector, it is true, stated that the refusals to prosecute were "justifiably" made, that he did not remember any letter from Svetlana Gubareva, but in general he refused to answer many questions. Elena Levshina, representing the city attorney's office, stated in the course of the hearings that there was no fault found on the part of medics and special forces members, but that the investigation was conducted thoroughly and competently. Mr. Kalchuk later sent the court a letter stating that he never received Ms. Gubareva's petition. Attorneys then produced for the court the original of the petition, bearing the receipt stamp of the city attorney's office, and asked for a separate decision with regards to the city attorney general's department. Judge Irina Vasina stated that she would examine the question when she arrived at a verdict in the lawsuit.
Yesterday, however, even the judge forgot about the defense's request. The court decided that the inspector's actions violated no laws, and that all investigations were executed in accordance with the law. Even if there were "incompleteness" in the investigation, it would be completed during further investigation - which has been prolonged until July 19th. As a result, the court refused all points of Ms. Gubareva's complaint.
"This is an unjustifiable decision," stated the plaintiff's attorney, Karina Moskalenko. "We established that Svetlana Gubareva's petition had been received by the attorney's office, it was a registered letter. For some reason the court not only would not consider this, but in general it would not return to our request to find the attorney's office in contempt. Furthermore, it's strange for a court of law to think that an investigation can 'subsequently ' fill in some gaps. The decisions curtailing the cases against the special forces and the medics, which we disputed, have already been made, that means that the investigation cannot return to these questions until the decisions have been abolished. This is some kind of a game, word juggling." In the opinion of the defense, many questions remained unanswered. Ms. Moskalenko explained that there had actually been no request for the court to examine a criminal case - the judge had stated that this was impossible. It did, however, need to examine Svetlana Gubareva's complaint. This, in the opinion of the attorneys, was not done. "I consider today's decision to be illegal, the court ignored all of our points, and we will appeal this decision in Moscow city court,", said Karina Moskalenko.
Marina Lepina
Kommersant
Of course, you can't sue a phantom 'operational staff', so I guess this is the best they can hope for.
From the autopsy of a North American male, age 45-55:
Contributing to the death of _____ were previously present, chronic diseases and morbid changes, which were discovered upon examination of his corpse: cardiovascular (signs of increased arterial pressure), brain (chronic arachnoid meningitis), and liver (local fatty hepatosis). These decreased the body’s ability to compensate for the actions of any injurious, external damaging factors, especially on the part of the liver, which is one of the organs functioning to detoxify (render safe) the utilized chemical substance (or substances). The multifactor nature of the cause of ______’s death rules out a direct cause-effect relationship between the action of the gaseous chemical substance (or substances) used on him, and his death.From the autopsy of a Russian male, age 35-45:
Contributing to the death ______ were previously present, chronic diseases and morbid changes, which were discovered upon examination of his corpse: brain (encephalopathy) and liver (extensive fatty hepatosis). These could have continued throughout life without expressing clinical signs, but decreased the body’s ability to compensate for the actions of any injurious, external damaging factors, especially on the part of the liver, which is one of the organs functioning to detoxify (render safe) the utilized chemical substance (or substances). The multifactor nature of the cause of _______’s death rules out a direct cause-effect relationship between the action of the gaseous chemical substance (or substances) used on him, and his death.
From the autopsy of a Central Asian female, age 10-15:
Contributing to the of death of ________ were previously present, chronic diseases and morbid changes which were discovered upon examination of her corpse: the lungs (chronic focal bronchitis), the brain (focal fibrosis of the arachnoid membrane) and the pancreas (extensive pancreosclerosis), which during the course of her life could continue without expressing any clinical manifestations, but decreased the body’s ability to compensate for the actions of any injurious, external damaging factors. The multifactor nature of the cause of _______’s death rules out a direct cause-effect relationship between the action of the gaseous chemical substance (or substances) used on her, and death.Very strange how 3 people from 3 different continents and 2 different generations can have such similar problems, and yet the gas used on them was not the culprit.
From all 3 autopsies:
In this case the relationship is of an incidental nature, since the main objective for considering the application of the gaseous chemical substance (or substances) was that it would not lead to death in the absence of other factors enumerated above.Of course, strange coincidences happen. I mean, Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig's disease - how strange is that?
Going out of town for awhile, so hold down the fort, girls! ;-)
Laughing with you.
You created more thoughts on this and they will require more googling and you leave town.......
Check in when your return and I do pray it is a safe trip, having fun is allowed also.......
If you can think of anyone who can understand this autopsy, would you ping them.
It is a strange one, on three of the victims in the Russian Theater murders.
Thoughts?
I like your thoughts in your post, and agree.
You pulled my thoughts into a readable form.
Thanks.
Never...I've got FReerepublic!
Hard words: If you are the victim of a terrorist act, or taken hostage, the best advice is to assume a seated position, grasp your knees, bend over as far as possible, and kiss your nether parts goodbye. Or fight back. Any result other than your death, whether heroic or not, is going to be the result of a successful intervention, or other miracle.
If things don't pan out, your surviving friends and family will grieve for you, and bitch and moan about the failed rescue effort for the rest of their lives. If they can, they'll sue. Understandable. Completely normal. Yet, on a realistic level, completely idiotic. On a political level, this is the default Democrat response to any disaster, natural or man-made.
Completely ignores the appropriate response to terrorism, which is to track them down, no matter how long it takes, or how much it costs, and kill them. This is where to focus scrutiny on "the authorities." One might also investigate the authorities' attitudes about allowing individuals to arm and protect themselves.
Hard words: If you are the victim of a terrorist act, or taken hostage, the best advice is to assume a seated position, grasp your knees, bend over as far as possible, and kiss your nether parts goodbye. Or fight back. Any result other than your death, whether heroic or not, is going to be the result of a successful intervention, or other miracle.
If things don't pan out, your surviving friends and family will grieve for you, and bitch and moan about the failed rescue effort for the rest of their lives. If they can, they'll sue. Understandable. Completely normal. Yet, on a realistic level, completely idiotic. On a political level, this is the default Democrat response to any disaster, natural or man-made.
Completely ignores the appropriate response to terrorism, which is to track them down, no matter how long it takes, or how much it costs, and kill them. This is where to focus scrutiny on "the authorities." One might also investigate the authorities' attitudes about allowing individuals to arm and protect themselves.
Interesting indeed!
Nice to see you, Peter.
Have a wonderful trip.
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