Middle Class Job Losses Batter Economy

Associated Press | January 2 2006 | Associated Press and Vicki Smith

[1rudeboy]

Now with that in mind, the free trader's best allies are the lefty "barking moonbats" that shifts the Democrats so far left, a huge chunk of the socially conservative former Democrats will vote Republican.

If the above was true, then why does your typical protectionist howl so when I point out the similarities between his position and that of your typical "lefty 'barking moonbat?'" I suppose it's ok to believe what you type is true, but when it's contradicted by a mountain of evidence, you should begin to wonder.

[MEGoody]

LOL The MSM sure doesn't want anyone to realize that our economy is perking along pretty well. They like to try to implant the idea in the brains of the mindless zombies that 'the economy is bad, the economy is bad". Come on, repeat it now!

[BeHoldAPaleHorse]

I read your tagline. You are full of crap. The margin in farming is extremely narrow, as is the margin in retail.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

Thank you for the information -- you'll get no argument from me about productivity increases.

I do not know how to state it any other way but I'll try:

Arguing that China too has eliminated inefficient operations thus they have gone (are going) through the same process as we is B.S.

They could not possibly have done (be doing) so. They are simply eliminating worthless Communist-style people's "enterprises" by the thousands until revolution became a real threat.

Meanwhile they are joining the real world with state of the art western technology purchased mostly by our useful idiots' FDI. Red China is getting a lot of our manufacturing sector. We are sending technology, wealth and jobs to them.

Some brush aside the fact that American jobs are being transferred to Red China.

"How can that be so?" they ask. "Look China cut millions of manufacturing jobs, we can't be sending our jobs there, they don't need them."

Red China is in a kind of transition. It is NOT the same as free enterprise advancements in a free nation. There, I said it another way.

But glad you pointed out that "During that same period (1994 and 2000), U.S. manufacturing output rose by 40 percent"

That's another argument some use such as CATO's Reynolds. How can we be losing jobs to China if manufacturing's portion of GDP has remained basically unchanged for decades? he asked. Productivity increases explain the job losses.

Magic is a better explanation. The Clinton's numbers keepers introduced hedonics. See post #71 (not mine). I am desperately looking for someone who can prove that the manufacturing portion of the GDP is NOT grossly overstated by hedonics. Thanks.

[Toddsterpatriot]

Red China is in a kind of transition. It is NOT the same as free enterprise advancements in a free nation. There, I said it another way.

Never said China was like a free nation.

Red China is getting a lot of our manufacturing sector. We are sending technology, wealth and jobs to them.

How many jobs are we sending them? And how many jobs are destroyed by our increase in productivity?

See post #71 (not mine).

You're referencing a Havoc post? That's funny!! I could go on for hours about the misconceptions Havoc labors (hehe) under, but someone who has been here as long as you have should already be aware of them.

I am desperately looking for someone who can prove that the manufacturing portion of the GDP is NOT grossly overstated by hedonics. Thanks.

If I can stop laughing long enough, I'll see what I can do.

[Havoc]

When the contracted pay and benefits destroy the profit margin in the product, the employees are grossly overpaid as of that moment.

Didn't destroy the profit margin.. The companies were still making a profit. And since when has what anyone made per hour or per year ever mattered to the treason lobby. Your the first to defend 20million per year CEO paychecks as being sane. But somehow a line worker making 20 dollars an hour is more of a threat.. rofl. I would think poor performance of Company execs who then bail and rape the company for countless millions would be more of a bother. But, you'll forgive our Bass akwards thinking in flyover country...

[Havoc]

The issue of more import may be "is the compensation union (or ANY workers) workers receive for their work reasonable for the type of work they do?"

That's great, I'm glad you guys feel that there is some question there wherein you can interject yourself in someone elses contract negotiations. Perhaps then you would admit that the public's view of Executive pay then is of value and that Executives are WAY overpaid...

[Paul Ross]

Well, I was trying to raise a moral issue.

A moral issue, eh? I suggest the ultimate morality is preserving the U.S. and our individual liberty...which is conditioned by our reciprocal obligations and duties. Be ready for war, With the communists. That would be moral. Then you have to justify yourself as an American, not a citizen of the World.

Would you favor protectionism that saved US jobs at the cost of Chinese jobs?

Would you favor the Chinese Communists being annointed THE industrial super-pwer, and the U.S. relegated to second or third-tier status?

I'm trying to understand your position.

Good, its not hard.

Which is it? Would you rather see the US closed or the Chinese more open?

It doesn't have to be either/or. But we do have to "take care of business" and ensure that we retain industrial and R&D primacy, and prevent hemmhoraging of vital capabilities to an extremely dangerous military enemy. And we have to preserve enough of the bottom tiers of the industrial pyramid so that we can retain our own capabilities in depth. We cannot afford to maintain those bottom tiers as "cottage industries" so the most-efficient, least-cost approach is to make sure that we have policies in place which promote manufactures in general. The general revenue tariff, combined with terminating income tax and capital gains tax does this.

Are you saying the problem with free trade is that it can't work? Or just hasn't worked?

Define 'Work' and precisely who does it 'work' for? I believe in the economic efficiency of free markets, but I am first and foremost a constitutionalist for our national security.

Would you be OK with free trade if the Chinese dropped all tariffs?

It would be a start, that would go a ways towards demolishing the Chinese Communist tyranny. But it likely won't happen, as we have seen. Even with a 100-to-1 labor cost advantage, they have erected huge tariff barriers. And if you have read the Chinese Defense Minister Chi Haotian, you also understand the PLA is really the force behind all of their industry with military potential. And that the technologies we are transferring are winding up in their military industrial infrastructure and arsenals. Those technologies were supposedly to be 'non-sensitive' but we find out later that China can extort or steal just about everything there is to grab. The culture of overconfidence on our part plays to their strengths.

Would you also acknowledge that for some Americans free trade is great?

Temporarily, in the case of China. The import lobby does great.

On one hand you seem to be upset with the Chinese because they have tariffs and at the same time want the US to implement our own.

It demonstrates that we are not in a free trade environment, contrary to the protestations of the China import lobbyists. They then claim that the uneven effects of the tilted playing field (which they fail to acknowledge) are really "just the breaks" of "free trade."

These apologists then step out of their zones of supposed expertise, and also tend to seriously exaggerate our military/societal readiness for a conflict to the death with China, and understate China's. They show clear signs of cognitive dissonance, of which appeasement behavior is a classic example...just as did Neville Chamberlain or the Isolationists prior to WW-II or the later unilateral anti-U.S. anti-nuclear movement.

What would make you happier: everybody has tariffs or nobody has tariffs?

Everybody does have tariffs, albeit for the U.S. being essentially far more open than our competition.

If you argue that the Chinese should be somehow converted into free traders I'm with you. If you think that we should use the threat of tariffs to get the Chinese to open markets that is one point.

That separates you from the Import Lobbyists who screamed bloody murder when that was proposed.

But if you think the problem is not that the Chinese are close[d] but that we are open I just can't agree.

We will have to disagree then. The objective evidence is on my side, however. China maintains a 5-to-1 trade imbalance advantage over the U.S. Real free trade would mean that they would be buying vastly more from us than they do... Their whole approach is one of economic warfare, as Chi Haotian explained. To reiterate a pertinent portion of his statement to their General Staff:

After the June 4 riot was suppressed, we have been thinking about how to prevent China from peaceful evolution and how to maintain the Communist Party’s leadership. We thought it over and over but did not come up with any good ideas. If we do not have good ideas, China will inevitably change peacefully, and we will all become criminals in history. After some deep pondering, we finally come to this conclusion: Only by turning our developed national strength into the force of a fist striking outward—only by leading people to go out —can we win forever the Chinese people’s support and love for the Communist Party. Our Party will then stand on invincible ground, and the Chinese people will have to depend on the Communist Party. They will forever follow the Communist Party with their hearts and minds, as was written in a couplet frequently seen in the countryside some years ago: “Listen to Chairman Mao, Follow the Communist Party!” Therefore, the June 4 riot made us realize that we must combine economic development with preparation for war and leading the people to go out! Therefore, since then, our national defense policy has taken a 180 degree turn and we have since emphasized more and more “combining peace and war.” Our economic development is all about preparing for the need of war! Publicly we still emphasize economic development as our center, but in reality, economic development has war as its center! We have made a tremendous effort to construct “The Great Wall Project” to build up, along our coastal and land frontiers as well as around large and medium-sized cities, a solid underground “Great Wall” that can withstand a nuclear war. We are also storing all necessary war materials. Therefore, we will not hesitate to fight a Third World War, so as to lead the people to go out and to ensure the Party’s leadership position. In any event, we, the CCP, will never step down from the stage of history! We’d rather have the whole world, or even the entire globe, share life and death with us than step down from the stage of history!!! Isn’t there a ‘nuclear bondage’ theory? It means that since nuclear weapons have bound the security of the entire world, all will die together if death is inevitable. In my view, there is another kind of bondage, and that is, the fate our Party is tied up with that of the whole world. If we, the CCP, are finished, China will be finished, and the world will be finished.

Our Party’s historical mission is to lead the Chinese people to go out. If we take the long view, we will see that history led us on this path. First, China’s long history has resulted in the world’s largest population, including Chinese in China as well as overseas. Second, once we open our doors, the profit-seeking western capitalists will invest capital and technology in China to assist our development, so that they can occupy the biggest market in the world. Third, our numerous overseas Chinese help us create the most favorable environment for the introduction of foreign capital, foreign technology and advanced experience into China. Thus, it is guaranteed that our reform and open-door policy will achieve tremendous success. Fourth, China’s great economic expansion will inevitably lead to the shrinkage of per-capita living space for the Chinese people, and this will encourage China to turn outward in search for new living space. Fifth, China’s great economic expansion will inevitably come with a significant development in our military forces, creating conditions for our expansion overseas. Even since Napoleon’s time, the West has been has been alert for the possible awakening of the sleeping lion that is China. Now, the sleeping lion is standing up and advancing into the world, and has become unstoppable!

This kind of scheming needs to be confronted head on, rather than excused, or blindly pretended to be either unreal or irrelevant last gasps of the monstrous Maoist Communists. We need to be doing everything we can to effectuate regime change. Firmly placing the Chi-Comms into the ash heap of history.

While we still can.

[Fury]

That's great, I'm glad you guys feel that there is some question there wherein you can interject yourself in someone elses contract negotiations. Perhaps then you would admit that the public's view of Executive pay then is of value and that Executives are WAY overpaid...

I'm not sure who you mean by "you guys".

Concerning Executive's pay, many are way overpaid, for sure.

As far as getting involved in other's contract negotiations, I was offering a viewpoint, just like other folks on the list and trying to contribute to the discussion.

[Paul Ross]

I see you have read nothing of my discussion of Smoot-Hawley.

Cogent enough for you? Get reading.

[Havoc]

Ok, that's fair.

The prevailing mindset seems to be that when it comes to executive salaries, the market pays what it can handle. But, when it comes to employee wage, opinion seems to be the driving factor and the market should only decide it after the market has been subverted to prevent employee wage from being what business doesn't want to pay...

[RightWhale]

Corporations also have eternal life. Better think twice about abolishing what is responsible for 80% of the economy.

[tyen]

But, if you want to carry this on, I would prefer it be done in private.

If you will permit it, I believe demonstrating in the open by individual example is the most powerful persuasion that exists. I believe there are a lot of others posting to and lurking in this thread who could benefit from a discussion of a concrete situation, because it personalizes the issues and becomes real to them.

This is not about me. I'm here because I believe what happened to me is wrong. I believed it was wrong before it happened to me. And I believe it should never happen to another American. I'm here to put an end to the betrayal of America by whatever means I can with my limited resources. If that means debate upto and including running for office, so be it. If that means other plausible means, so be it. I don't know all the options; but, this was bigger than me when it got to me and will remain so. I am not the focus nor do I want to be. I'm trying to put my money where my mouth is.. which is more than I can say for the treason lobby.

These are all laudable sentiments. The personal testimonial however, is truly putting your money where your mouth is. I want to discuss this in the open because for my own selfish reasons I want to put my own beliefs to the test. I have no idea where an open discussion will lead to. We might, for example, conclude that you have done everything you possibly can, and there truly is no way out; and if it comes to that I will gladly concede you are correct about various aspects of the offshoring issue. However, I am inclined to believe that together we can come up with at least several viable strategies that can give you hope, and by extension, anyone else in a predicament similar to yours the same hope.

Just so you won't feel you are standing on the stage by yourself, I'll share my own personal testimonial out in the open, but with no expectation nor obligation on your part to do the same. I just want you to know that I wouldn't ask you to do anything I won't do myself. Think of it as a confidence building measure.

Back in 1997, I joined up with an IT consulting company, about 300 consultants in the firm. I was leaving another consulting company where I had naively run afoul of departmental politics so corporate life already held little appeal to me. I knew it was politics that was responsible for my poor annual review and not my actual performance because my old company's CEO and the client manager I was with at the time made personal appeals to me to stay, and the COO, for whom the annual review process was his personal pet project, said he made a mistake in my case in his own personal appeal. I left amicably, since it was water under the bridge and the best that everyone could do after all that happened was to learn and move on.

The new company seemed different however, so I gave corporate life another shot. I was the top performing consultant in my division; in the depths of the dot com bomb, I was one out of five consultants in the entire company who received any annual bonus at all, and out of the five, I got the highest bonus. Traveling 50 out of 52 weeks to billable projects and helping the sales and marketing teams with whatever they needed (RFPs, brochures, sales pitches, etc.) helped accomoplish this. My compensation was a healthy six figures, and I flew to so many projects I got lifetime platinum status with American Airlines.

There were warning signs despite all the good news, however.

I expressed my concerns two years before I felt they would come home to roost in the division. I was made technical lead of the division, but only about the time I predicted trouble would really hit the division. I was right. We were losing profitability steadily, and within two months after I was tapped as technical lead we would start bleeding red ink at our current burn rate. I quickly figured out that the previous business managers of the division had simply rode a fortuitous series of contracts and didn't really develop the business side. I got word through back channels that the former business people got my company blackballed by our primary vendor whose products we sell, because of their incredibly poor sales abilities (bugging the vendor for leads until the vendor gave up on us). By this point, the CEO was taking personal charge of the division, we were down to just one salesman, he was tapped as the de facto operations manager for the division, and I had learned enough about sales to know that our salesman only knew how to work inside sales and couldn't create his own leads.

Despite all this bad news, I took a chunk of my savings and invested in myself. At this point I knew bits and pieces of sales and marketing, but needed to put it together into a coherent system. So I signed up for a three-day seminar on marketing, on my own post-tax dime. It was very expensive (think used car expensive), but it delivered the goods. The entire division was shut down only four weeks after I was made technical lead, two weeks after I got back from the seminar, and it was mostly due to very poor management. The company did the business equivalent of strip mining, instead of farming and husbanding the market.

The dot bomb's effects were really getting under way at the time. Despite that, I could have gotten another consulting position because by that time I had started to build a name for myself, having spoken at one of the industry's annual conferences and helped the vendor's engineers on numerous occasions. I've been steadily working towards educating myself on the non-technical aspects of my industry, and since working for someone else seemed about as unstable as starting my own business, I opted to strike out on my own.

I'm not going to paint you a rosy picture. It was scary as hell sometimes. I came close to running out of cash twice in the first year, even though I had set aside a year's worth of living expenses. Got stiffed out of fees by an Indian body shop in our second year. But ever since we've slowly built momentum (cash reserves), and are into our fourth year of operation (five years is usually the startup mortality line, about 90% fail within that period). I've regained my former compensation level and rebuilt my personal cash reserves. And I'll never go back to working W-2 again even if it means more compensation (because I know that without full control, that compensation is only temporary).

The key to the successful transition was to learn how to conduct all aspects of my industry's business, and not just the technical side. But I didn't start this only when I started to see trouble brewing. I started learning what I could about the business aspects over ten years ago. I am hardly a smooth sales or marketing type of personality; but I made a conscious effort to study what it takes to be successful performing those roles. I'm still a wallflower at parties these days, though only private parties; at industry functions I work the room, which for me was incredibly uncomfortable to learn.

What I see in similar between us is that we are technically competent in our areas, but our personal fortunes were at the capricious whim of company management. I outlined with my personal testimonial only one way to counter this situation. Now, I happen to strongly advocate starting your own business as the superior answer to economic instability, but I acknowledge there are other equally remunerative approaches if pure compensation is what motivates you. You already have an advantage in my eyes because you have had some experience in sales. I hope to have a productive discussion with you about your personal situation, and hopefully with some positive feedback from others on this thread we can all find some path out of your current position that you agree can propel you towards the success you seek. And hopefully that will inspire others that have chimed in with stories similar to yours to seek their own paths out of their offshored conditions.

[Havoc]

Corporations do not have eternal life and business, not corporations, is resposible for the economy.

[RightWhale]

One of the characteristics of our created being--the corporation--is eternal life. Any text on corporate law mentions this. The corporation may die, some do every day, but they may survive forever, in theory. It's possibly the only thing in the universe that might be eternal aside from the Eternal itself.

[A. Pole]

Your tagline is incorrect.

How come? Assuming that the number of lettuce heads cut per member of a team is 200 (which is not very high - team total 600 including one packer and two cutters) $10 per hour equals five cents per lettuce head.

[Andrewksu]

Your a little slow on the uptake, I am saying that they are grossly overpaid in the scale of wages within the US. They are getting paid more than they would be worth on the open market. Money doesn't grow on trees, even for large corporations. The Unions have many companies and industries by the short and curlies, and jack wages up well beyond normal market value. Since the US is no longer, and never will be again, a closed market, our companies cannot raise prices to cover these expenses.

You cannot argue that Unions don't overstep their bounds on many accounts. Unions are notorious for cutthroat tactics, remember the NY transit strike just weeks ago?? Rest my case!

[A. Pole]

And you think national healthcare in the US is a good idea?

It depends how it is organized. Anyway I do not see how it can be avoided when the costs are raising, the trade barriers are being lowered (costs of medical care add to the cost of production even if they could be paid by the workers themselves) and increasing number of voters is being affected.

[A. Pole]

I read your tagline. You are full of [expl]. The margin in farming is extremely narrow, as is the margin in retail.

How come? Assuming that the number of lettuce heads cut per member of a team is 200 (which is not very high - team total 600 including one packer and two cutters) $10 per hour equals five cents per lettuce head.

[Toddsterpatriot]

How come? Assuming that the number of lettuce heads cut per member of a team is 200 (which is not very high - team total 600 including one packer and two cutters) $10 per hour equals five cents per lettuce head.

If only labor were the only expense.I guess you didn't notice the expensive California land those cutters were walking on? Or the equipment need to plant, water and fertilize the lettuce. Or the equipment needed to refrigerate, store and ship it to say my local vegetable stand in Chicago. Unless you think these other things should be free, comrade?