Posted on 01/01/2006 9:39:42 AM PST by Flavius
Your article is from 2001, and notice how it's 2006 and those S-300s still haven't been delivered. Just internet rumors, that's all. If anything, Iran is far more likely to obtain advanced weaponry from China, who makes cheap S-300 knockoffs under license.
Approx. date Location Type of aircraft/Remarks 24.03. Kosovo One NATO aircraft (some sources say F-117) was hit by an air to air missile fired by pilot Iljo Arizanov flying MiG-29
from 24.03. till 31.03. Montenegro One NATO helicopter with rescue troops and a pilot that was picked up was shot down. Pilot was probably the one flying Sea Harrier that was shot down near Virpazar
from 24.03. till 07.04. At least 4 (according to the latest information, 6) German aircraft (probably Tornadoes) were shot down. The crew of one aircraft is known to have ejected and was captured shortly after (either over Jastrebac or Fruska Gora), the crew of second Tornado was killed (it is possible that this is a Tornado that was shot down till 17:00 26.03. 12km south of Pancevo). Also, one German Tornado was shot down on 29.03. and the crew ejected (it is also possible that this Tornado is in fact the craft that was downed near the village of Gakovo) 26.03.
until 17:00 12km south of Bogatic UAV shot down 26.03.
until 17:00 4km south of Orahovac UAV shot down 26.03.
until 17:00 7 km south of Pancevo At least one F-16C was shot down in air to air combat. Military sources and some eyewitnesses say it was shot down by a Yugoslav MiG-29
28.03. UAV shot down 28.03. Kosovo One F-16 shot down by Lt.Col. Cira Simic's unit Third wave of attacks 4 F-16 were shot down by air defense units in the third wave of attacks. Information confirmed by Russian Defense Ministry According to reliable information, at least one (probably two) EA-6Bs were shot down Petrovcic, 15km west of Belgrade
One NATO plane crashed probably over Kosovo One A-10 Thunderbolt II was shot down by Sgt. Sasa Mitic with Strela missile. Aircraft crashed near Presevo Kosovo One Tornado shot down by Sgt. Branko Tintor with Kub-M SAM (Lt.Col. Cira Simic's unit)
Two aircraft shot down by Lt. Vladan Zivkovic with Strela missile system (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's unit) One aircraft shot down by soldier Nikola Mileusnic with Strela-1M missile system (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's unit)
One NATO plane downed by Janko Milosevic (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's air defense unit) One aircraft down by Sasa Kostadinovic with Strela-2M missile system middle of April vicinity of Novi Sad
One F-16C was shot down by Aleksandar Sunjka with 20mm AAA. Plane was hit in the cockpit area. Pilot killed
17.04. village Rokci, near Aleksandrovac Wreckage of one F-16 was found after 20.04. village of Vrazalice, area between Gorazde, Rogatica and Visegrad One NATO plane crashed. Local Serb police unit that tried to access the site was blocked by SFOR troops until
05.05. Major Zoran Velickovic's air defense unit shot down 2 NATO planes
06.05. Nis One of the four planes that was shot down over the city, was Belgian F-16. Pilot was captured as soon as he touched the ground
until 12.05. Lt.Col. Nikola Blazevic's air defense unit shot down 3 NATO aircraft
until 12.05. Lt.Col. Zoran Damnjanovic's air defense unit hit and damaged 9 NATO planes (5 of which crashed within Yugoslav territory) and 2 NATO UAVs
until 20.05. Major Stojan Simijonovic's air defense unit shot down 5 NATO aircraft until 20.05. Lt.Col. Cira Simic's air defense unit shot down 13 airplanes and several UAVs until 20.05.
Radovan Curcic's unit shot down 2 planes and one UAV
The UAV loses are confirmed privately to me by people at General Atomic. Source:http://www.aeronautics.ru/natodownunclassified.htm
Russia is using the Iranian jihad as a proxy to fight the US in Iraq.
You are using Venik www.aeronautics.ru as a source of accurate info? LOL.
Venik is still a laughing stock within the aviation and military world with his table of losses. He even has START treaty verifiable B-2 and B-52s shot down over Yugoslavia. The guy is a certified loon!
Count up the losses in human life alone of NATO aircrew and soldiers and it goes into the hundreds. Please explain, not using Venik's ignorant logic, how they are all covered up to this day?
"Approx. date Location Type of aircraft/Remarks 24.03. Kosovo One NATO aircraft (some sources say F-117) was hit by an air to air missile fired by pilot Iljo Arizanov flying MiG-29"
No Yugoslav pilot made any air-to-air claim for any NATO aircraft. The ghost writers of the Yugoslav Government Information agency made those claims. The pilots of the 127th Fighter Squadron were most upset that their brave attempts at engaging NATO strike packages were altered by the Yugoslav Government. Their post combat reports were altered by the then Yugoslav government to reflect losses of NATO aircraft. After the conflict aviation researchers interviewed the pilots of 127th and not a single claim of a shoot down was made. No Yugoslav pilot got a chance to fire any air-to-air missile at any NATO aircraft.
I could go on and on. Tally up all those claims of shot down manned aircraft and the resulting captured or killed aircrew. Explain to me why not one single photo exists of any of those captured pilots or the wreckage of their aircraft. Even the ICRC announced that they only exchanged two captured Yugoslav soldiers and the US troops taken prisoner on the Macedonian border. No other prisoner of war exchanges took place.
The tables that you are presenting of manned aircraft losses are simply the results of the intense propaganda effort made by the Yugoslavs. It resulted in a mass of idiotic claims and truly stretched the imagination. Even the Yugoslav government ministers were bleating ridiculous claims.
During June 199 Mrs Radmila Visic stated the following to the media:
The Deputy Secretary of Information of the Serb government, Radmila Visic, claimed that Yugoslavia has shot down more than 190 NATO aircrafts since March 24, when the Alliance launched air raids against the country, in her interview at the Macedonian Press Agency. Mrs Visic accused NATO of
concealing the actual number of its losses during the two-month war in Yugoslavia and reassured that when the hostilities are over, the Alliance will be forced to inform first of all the mothers of the dead pilots, who still don't know the truth. "Of course Americans and the rest of the NATO allies do not admit that they lost 190 aircrafts and they will not admit it in any of their briefings. However, even in the Internet, in NATO's web-site there are data that confirm this number and verify the claims of the
Yugoslav army", said Mrs. Visic. "I am certain that when this is all over, then the international public opinion and especially the American one will face the Vietnam syndrome and then the mothers of the pilots of the shot down planes will be informed that their sons where killed in the raids
against Yugoslavia", she stressed. When asked about why the Yugoslav authorities do not present photos or videos that
confirm their allegations of having downed 190 planes, the Serb minister noted that even NATO itself has admitted that Yugoslavia has a remarkable strategy. "It is part of our tactics, not to show them. I, like a good soldier, will not give more information on this...."
What you have presented in the tables are the ramblings of the propaganda effort.
After the conflict Bojan Bugarcic who was the Senior Advisor on International Affairs to Misosevic blew the lid on the propaganda effort. During interview Bugarcic revealed:
"He [Bugarcic] said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. "Using the state broadcaster, unofficial 'Russian intelligence' web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled. My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was
one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting 'pure lies,' his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. "He was devestated when he learned the truth."
As another example go back to the tables and tally up all the manned aircraft claimed shot down inside Serbia itself. Ask yourself after all those manned aircraft wrecks claimed in Yugoslavia then why can they only put on show two manned aircraft wrecks?
Much of the info is questionable but much is valid. I'll stick to my original statement except for the F-15/16.
Much of it!? Everything pertaining to manned aircraft is bogus. You are relying on bogus sources. Which recounts of manned aircraft shot down in any of those lists is 'valid'?
In addition, the Iranians have been feverishly working on stealth tracking technology. They may have well figured it out.
As far as I can tell we no longer operate formal Wild Weasel Squadrons - if so then we are counting on HARM's launched by not the most experienced pilots. How dumb will we look when the Iranians bring down a B-2? Using the cell phone network as their eyes.
Well you certainly didn't follow the media. Even Russian official military magazines such as Red Star were claiming b-52s and B-2s shot down! Good hype, but they forget that they are accountable under START. Both sides inspect and yet nobody has noticed any missing from the inventory during 1999 or to date.
You do realise the political implications of any of those undisclosed losses that you are hinting at? Clinton was in charge. He is on the record as confirming no losses of manpower to enemy action. All those claims of manned aircraft shot down and not one body repatriated or aircrew prisoner of war taken. Think of the nations that took part and and those governments and yet no one has spilled the beans on either a missing aircraft or the death/capture of any of its aircrew.
Please explain how you are going to cover up the loss of an airframe and keep it from going public? Every airframe is accountable through its registration, bureau number/construction number. You can't just re-open the production line to cover up the loss of an aircraft. Think of all the aviation enthusiasts who track aircraft serials and their unit histories. These are known as aircraft spotters and hang out by military airbases recording and photographing military aircraft. The NATO bases throught Europe were heaving with spotters during the conflict and recording serials deployed. Every aircraft has a track record how are you going to explain the missing aircraft to those enthusiasts?
Type into Google 'Scramble on the web' On this website you will see the detailed records and databases kept. Run through their databases and get back to me when you find aircraft missing from the inventories.
Think of the Crew Chiefs of that aircraft, maintenance people and the entire squadron and airbase. Think of the financial gain that could be made by selling the story of undisclosed losses to the media. Clinton hating press would have a field day if such a story broke. Think of all the nationalities involved in the air action and the cover up that would have to be put into effect to hide losses?
Sorry, but your use of the loss of the F/A-18 Hornet during Desert Storm just doesn't wash. The pilot was reported missing in combat and the loss of his aircraft was announced. Hard to cover up a missing aircraft from a carrier squadron. Same goes for those losses that you are hinting at over Yugoslavia. Hard to cover up the loss of a suadron aircraft from the base that it left from.
The Yugoslav Aeronautical Museum staff have accumulated approximately 1500 pieces of everything under the sun. Apart from the two manned aircraft losses (F-117A 82-806, and F-16CG 88-0550 and the remains of the starboard engine nacelle from A-10A 81-0967) even they have failed to produce anything other than UAVs, fuel tanks and remains of missile debris (Yugoslav and NATO). The "recovery teams" from the museums interviewed by UK aviation magazines revealed that some of their searches were conducted during air-raid alerts to try and recover interesting exhibits for the museum. Even they have failed to recover any other wreckage of manned NATO aircraft lost
As to your rambling on 'Wild Weasel'. There is no longer a requirement for hurling pink bodies at SAM radar sites as in the heady days of Vietnam. Ed Rasimus was a 'Wild Weasel' and had the follwing to say on the subject on Google groups:
'Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) is still an important mission, but "Weaseling" per se isn't. There were F-4G WW aircraft flying during Desert Storm, but the F-16CJ has assumed the anti-SAM role and the application is not quite the same as Weasel tactics. Technological developments including better radar warning receivers, stealth, better jamming, and better ARMs all have contributed to the change'
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